I do recall divorce being a sin (matthew 19:3-12)

Quote: Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Yet lots of christians have no problem committing that sin.

(May 13, 2012 at 7:33 am)Gooders1002 Wrote:

(May 13, 2012 at 7:06 am)StatCrux Wrote: 2.Homosexual marriage is harmful to society as it devalues the special relationship between a man and a woman which is procreative in principle. A society which sees marriage as merely a union of two persons loses the ideals of family.

Devalues the 'special relationship'
yer right Straight people can have just for fun weddings then devoice them in under an hour. What ever Special about marriage went out the window about 10-15 years ago. And idealy of family? that were lots of different types of family, single parent, m/f familys, M/M or F/F familys mote family's in the bible were M/FFFF times up to 1000.
Straight people can have 20 marriages and your denying a gay couple one. The whole permant nuclear family thing went out the window, in fact there rare these days in 1st world contries at least and you be dames to find a nuclear family that's had more one or more devoices

You obviously don't understand the context or meaning of "special relationship" special in the sense that it is procreative (I think that's clear in the post) Not special int he sense of "nice" or "lovely" To argue that other examples of people not respecting the sacrament of marriage is a reason for allowing gay marriage or in some way has any bearing on my argument is a non-sequitur. Do you understand the term "in principle"?

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(May 13, 2012 at 7:39 am)Zen Badger Wrote: I do recall divorce being a sin (matthew 19:3-12)

Quote: Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Yet lots of christians have no problem committing that sin.

And that supports gay marriage in what way?" People commit sin so why not have gay marriage?" is that your argument?

(May 13, 2012 at 7:44 am)StatCrux Wrote: And that supports gay marriage in what way?" People commit sin so why not have gay marriage?" is that your argument?

It's not supposed to support gay marriage.

It illustrates what a bunch of fucking hypocrites christians are.

Yep, I just don't get why your against something that's not going to harm you or society in any way (just like woman's right and interracial marriage harmed society) and the bible is not enough to stand on to dismiss it. What evidence do you have that it will harm society.

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(May 13, 2012 at 7:49 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(May 13, 2012 at 7:44 am)StatCrux Wrote: And that supports gay marriage in what way?" People commit sin so why not have gay marriage?" is that your argument?

It's not supposed to support gay marriage.

It illustrates what a bunch of fucking hypocrites christians are.

If hypocrisy was uranium we would have enough to power the plant for ever.

(May 13, 2012 at 7:49 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(May 13, 2012 at 7:44 am)StatCrux Wrote: And that supports gay marriage in what way?" People commit sin so why not have gay marriage?" is that your argument?

It's not supposed to support gay marriage.

It illustrates what a bunch of fucking hypocrites christians are.

How do you reach that conclusion? The Church is still against divorce. People aren't perfect, they commit sins. If people were perfect there would be no need for the Church. The difference is that Christians recognize their failings as such and try to change them, refusing to see behavior as sin or denying that it is sinful is more the issue.

(May 13, 2012 at 7:06 am)StatCrux Wrote: 1.Marriage is (not exclusively but importantly) for the procreation and upbringing of children.

Source of that definition? Dictionary.com doesn't mention this at all in its definition. Are you sure you're not the one redefining it?

Quote:Anything which is not (in principle) open to this is not a marriage.

See above - definition does not require this.

Quote:Note this is in principle, so examples of heterosexual marriage where the couple cannot have children does not invalidate the principle.

What if they knew before they got married? What if the guy has his penis cut off in an accident? Who made these rules up, and where will I find them? I think you're making this up as you go along.

Quote:Homosexual unions are not in principle open to procreation.

While it's true they can't procreate with each other, many homosexual couples raise children and many more want to. We have at our disposal in this day and age wondrous ways in which this can be done. So now that homosexual couples can create and raise children, this doesn't sway you in any way? Thought not.

Quote:This is the issue, we can redefine marriage, which is what is being proposed and which is being fought against. At the moment homosexual unions cannot be called mariage.

According to who? As I said, you appear to be redefining it yourself.

Quote:2.Homosexual marriage is harmful to society as it devalues the special relationship between a man and a woman which is procreative in principle. A society which sees marriage as merely a union of two persons loses the ideals of family.

Here's what I think about you. Firstly, you're stuck in the past in a big way. Even if everything you said was true and marriage was for men and women only, times do and must change. We live in a society now where there is much less persecution of homosexuals, and it's about time. There is no reason whatsoever for there to be disparity of rights between people of different leanings in this way.

Secondly, you have redefined marriage to suit your own agenda, and it's based on nothing. Marriage is a union, that is literally what the word means. The children issue is irrelevant, and even if you could find a definition of marriage that makes procreation a focal point, it's irrelevant for the reasons outlined above.

Thirdly, as has been pointed out, marriage is an institution that predates your religion and is anything but sacred. It's a temporary contract binding two people, nothing more.

(May 13, 2012 at 7:56 am)StatCrux Wrote:

(May 13, 2012 at 7:49 am)Zen Badger Wrote: It's not supposed to support gay marriage.

It illustrates what a bunch of fucking hypocrites christians are.

How do you reach that conclusion? The Church is still against divorce. People aren't perfect, they commit sins. If people were perfect there would be no need for the Church. The difference is that Christians recognize their failings as such and try to change them, refusing to see behavior as sin or denying that it is sinful is more the issue.

We would be more perfect without the church and the Bible. The church and the bible has held us back to babyish bronzed-age ideas and has cause alot of emotional and physical pain over its 2000 years. Praying on the weak minded and emotional blackmailing the poor into giving it money they barely have. The Church and the bible needs to go, the Bible repulses me and the Church is a bunch of blackmailing backwards priest who the flock are lulled into a false sense of hope and told there not worthy to wonderland to meet this magic being that will great them eternal life and happiness if they do obey the magic being ever wish and whim Or face a celestial oven that never ends. also the church sends it flock to pray on the weak minded and to tell those that don't follow there going to burn in these oven forever and to reject there inborn nature to conform with the priests and flocks vision of normal and try and oppress anybody who is different. the church is one big scam machine and the bible is the most warped evil horror story ever devised by man.
As far as I am concerned your Church and bible and Anti-gay attitude can go straight to hell. (pander the expression)

(May 13, 2012 at 8:08 am)ElDinero Wrote: Here's what I think about you. Firstly, you're stuck in the past in a big way. Even if everything you said was true and marriage was for men and women only, times do and must change. We live in a society now where there is much less persecution of homosexuals, and it's about time. There is no reason whatsoever for there to be disparity of rights between people of different leanings in this way.

Secondly, you have redefined marriage to suit your own agenda, and it's based on nothing. Marriage is a union, that is literally what the word means. The children issue is irrelevant, and even if you could find a definition of marriage that makes procreation a focal point, it's irrelevant for the reasons outlined above.

Thirdly, as has been pointed out, marriage is an institution that predates your religion and is anything but sacred. It's a temporary contract binding two people, nothing more.

"Under UK law, the legal definition of marriage is the ''union of a man and a woman''. With same-sex partnerships the legal definition of marriage would not apply. The Civil Partnership Act was created as the solution whereby same-sex couples can become ''married'' and benefit from the legal rights that mixed-sex marriage affords." Contract Law UK

"The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament." Catechism of the Catholic Church.

This isn't an issue about equality, in the UK homosexuals can register civil partnerships and have all the legal rights of marriage that heterosexual couples have. This is about the pro-gay movement wanting to redefine marriage in order to force Churches to perform same sex marriages. They say this isn't the case and no Churches would be forced into doing this, but militant homosexuals will be able to push this to the European courts under the guise of human rights if they are granted marriage in the UK. Its a triumph of common sense and reason that the UK government has backed down on this issue, hoorah!

There isn't any need for "The Church" regardless of whether or not a god exists. Case in point, it is "The Church" that has perpetuated the bigotry and ignorance expressed in this thread, not god.

"Militant homosexuals" hehehe, Lilly....Trans brigade, airborne wing?




Look at all those short shorts...totally suspect. Hell, they're practically auditioning for a musical.

The UK goverment will have to stick to its promise if it want to say in power,and now there support from Obama this it going to push it forward, saver it now as it will not last long.