Quote:I'm honestly trying to have a productive conversation about which beliefs you guys describe as 'atheist'.

You're asking what beliefs sound like non-beliefs. D: There is a paradox there that if it grows any wider may threaten the space-time continuum, just so ya know.

Okay, to stop getting bogged down in referencing past portions of the argument, I'm just going to wipe the slate clean.

Is the following belief system atheistic? If not, why not?

{"Justin Bieber exists", "Hurting people is wrong", "Honda is a good car manufacturer"}

Note that I'm not asking if any of these beliefs are accurate, or true.

Here's my thinking:

Yes, the belief system is atheistic; it doesn't include (or imply) the belief "At least one god exists".


Rhythm, do you agree with my evaluation of the belief system? Or do you think that I've made a mistake?

The obvious question would be what the Biebs existence, hurting people, and Honda have to do with atheism?

(July 6, 2012 at 1:05 pm)Rhythm Wrote: The obvious question would be what the Biebs existence, hurting people, and Honda have to do with atheism?

You didn't answer any of the questions I asked:

Is the following belief system atheistic? If not, why not?

Rhythm, do you agree with my evaluation of the belief system? Or do you think that I've made a mistake?

No, because none of those statements have anything to do with atheism or theism.

I did answer your question.

This, btw is the false dichotomy that you've been criticized for. Demanding that something be either "theistic" or "atheistic" ignores the fact that it might be neither of the two.

Beiber is an issue of whether or not any given person exists -regardless of whether or not one believes or doesn't- It is not a statement that forms a part of (or is dependent upon) atheism or theism
Hurting people is an issue of morality, regardless of whether or not one believes or doesn't (though many belief systems do have quite a bit to say on the subject) -It is not a statement that forms a part of (or is dependent upon) atheism or theism.
Honda making good cars is a value judgement, regardless of whether or not one believes or doesn't-It is not a statement that forms a part of (or is dependent upon) atheism or theism.

(July 6, 2012 at 1:08 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, because none of those statements have anything to do with atheism.

I did answer your question.

So the following definition is not true:

A belief system B is atheist if and only if B does not include the belief, "At least one god exists".

So what does it mean for a belief system to be atheist? How do you know when a belief system is atheist?

Is a red car a Red, or a car that is red? Might the car also be other things, in addition to being red? If it happens to be an SUV does that have anything to do with it being red? If it's an suv does that mean it must be red? Relationships between things are important.

Justin Beiber exists and I don't believe in god -would be an "atheistic belief system". The relationship between atheism and my stated beliefs is apparent in the declaration.

Idiot, do you see the statement, "2+2=4" or "this is a tree" as being "either atheist or theist, pick one!"?


Are you really THAT fucking stupid?

(July 6, 2012 at 1:20 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Is a red car a Red, or a car that is red? Might the car also be other things, in addition to being red? If it happens to be an SUV does that have anything to do with it being red? If it's an suv does that mean it must be red? Relationships between things are important.

So...what does it mean for a belief system to be atheist? How do you know when a belief system is atheist?

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(July 6, 2012 at 1:20 pm)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote: Idiot, do you see the statement, "2+2=4" or "this is a tree" as being "either atheist or theist, pick one!"?


Are you really THAT fucking stupid?

Well, given the definition of atheism as "The lack of theism", those would indeed be atheist. But it seems like you think that's a bad definition. What definition would you propose?

When it involves non-belief in god silly.