The best bit of this "Christian nation" clodswollop is that it's only relatively recently that "Christians" have joined together as a single block in this type of debate. Back then they would have thought in terms of different Christian dominions. So, which dominion's principles was the US founded on?

Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian

(list from http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fa...igion.html)

And compare that to the relative mix of dominions today. 1) Catholics (69m), 2) Southern Baptists (16m), United Methodists (8m), Mormons (6m), Pentecostal (COGIC) (5m)..... Where are the Anglicans, Congregationalists and Presbyterian (although some stats put them ay 6m) of the above list???

(October 27, 2012 at 10:33 am)IATIA Wrote: The founding fathers were basically deists, not christians. Most wanted nothing to do with christianity. Remember, the Inquisition was fresh on their minds and they were all too familiar with the' power of the church'.

Stop the unfounded statements, proof please?

Jesus Christ, this is so simple... Some of you (yes, you, atheists) are taking this far too seriously.

The Constitution, which is the first document to substantiate the United States as a wholesome country, did not acknowledge a supreme being. It also clearly grants us the right to choose any religion we would like.

Nothing else matters. The US is not a "Christian nation", and even if it was started as one, current statistics indicate that Christianity has become more fragmented than ever.

(October 27, 2012 at 12:28 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Most, if not all, european countries became official sovereign countries by a
They all began christian... worse, catholic!
And now, look at them... mostly secular and it's mostly the elderly that attend religious ceremonies.

Wrong. Europeans were originally "pagan", which is an umbrella term for a naturalistic spiritual system, consisting of a way of life and multiple, fallible deities, that didn't need churches and priests to force the religion onto others. That natural preference is why Europeans are now mostly secular: Christianity is partly Jewish in origin, was forced onto Europeans, and has now lost the power needed to stifle descent. Since Europeans are more knowledgeable of the natural world via science, they no longer have the need to believe that things like lightning are the work or manifestations of other beings. Therefore, Europeans are shifting to what is more of a natural way of life, without the mysticism and uncertainty present in earlier times.

no particular denomination, that's the point. like i said, the nation does not favor any specific denomination. but we were founded as a christian nation tolerant to all religions.

Minimalist Wrote:The words "god", "jesus", christ, and "christian" do not appear in the constitution. So much for your xtian horseshit.

true, but it has in the year of our lord on it.
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&...1,s:0,i:74

Gilgamesh Wrote:Basically, you said "The founding fathers were christians and this proves they wanted the nation to be guided by christian morals." Where's the reasoning there?

the fact that the founding fathers established church services in the capitol building proves that.

Gilgamesh Wrote:Anyway, even if the founders did want the nation to be guided by christian morals; so, what? I hope you're not insinuating that the leaders of a nation should adhere to the demands of the founders of the nation for no reason other than because they're the founders. It doesn't matter who's saying it; it matters only what's being said.

i'm saying the court case that established seperation of church was bogus because it's not what the founding fathers intended as was argued at the cases. they took the term out of context from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association made it out to mean something Thomas Jefferson never meant it to mean.

Gilgamesh Wrote:Also, why does the phrase "In god we trust" have to refer to the christian god?

well that's what they meant when they wrote it. you can argue the meaning of the word but not the intent of the writer.

The_Germans_are_coming Wrote:Your nation was founded as a democracy, and yeah it is and was a importent step in the ongoing process of making progress for mankind. But it was only a step.
Some of your founding fathers thought slavery was alright and maybe eaven had slaves. Some of them actualy were convinced racists such as Benjamin Franklin.
At first your constitution only gave men who owned property the right to vote.

actually founded as a republic. but anyways, i'm not saying all their principles were right. but it's stupid to say it was the founder's intent in the legal proceedings to establish the seperation of church and state as we see it today when it clearly wasn't. they can't make that arguement and say "so what?" when they're proven wrong. do you see the problem here?

KichigaiNeko Wrote:Repetitive chippy....we already have a thread on this don't we?

a little from a deviation off a topic. but i wanted to formally address it.

(October 27, 2012 at 4:26 pm)Polaris Wrote: I don't give much credit to the Treaty of Triploi because of how quickly we went to war with them.....to me, it was just a BS treaty no different than the Japanese pretending to seek negotiations prior to Pearl Harbor.

The big thing is this: the Treaty of Tripoli was made around the same time as the US was coming on its own, and its text was made public, and here's the key thing: nobody objected to that passage's being put in it.

(October 27, 2012 at 9:03 pm)chi pan Wrote:

Minimalist Wrote:The words "god", "jesus", christ, and "christian" do not appear in the constitution. So much for your xtian horseshit.

true, but it has in the year of our lord on it.
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&...1,s:0,i:74

More of a matter of linguistics than anything else. This was in the time when just saying 1787 wasn't self explanatory.

Quote:i'm saying the court case that established seperation of church was bogus because it's not what the founding fathers intended as was argued at the cases. they took the term out of context from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association made it out to mean something Thomas Jefferson never meant it to mean.

And which court case is that exactly? And, even if they did intend for the U.S. to be a "Christian Nation", does this necessarily mean this is a good idea?

(October 27, 2012 at 8:05 pm)Godschild Wrote: Stop the unfounded statements, proof please?

Quote:true, but it has in the year of our lord on it.

The best you can do, huh? A dating convention?

You xtians really are pathetic.

(October 27, 2012 at 10:43 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The best you can do, huh? A dating convention?

You xtians really are pathetic.

is there more needed? it may have been common to put that as part of the date, but that's like saying because it's common to say "so help me God" in court oath that there's no significance to it. christianity was obviously a deep part of their culture, also shown by all patriotic songs including our national anthem having God in it.

(October 27, 2012 at 11:29 pm)chi pan Wrote: christianity was obviously a deep part of their culture, also shown by all patriotic songs including our national anthem having God in it.

God? Kinda generic, don't you think? Now if they said Yahweh, you might have a case, but as it stands...

(October 27, 2012 at 11:34 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

(October 27, 2012 at 11:29 pm)chi pan Wrote: christianity was obviously a deep part of their culture, also shown by all patriotic songs including our national anthem having God in it.

God? Kinda generic, don't you think? Now if they said Yahweh, you might have a case, but as it stands...

please, what other God would they mention in their intention? like i said, you can argue definition but not intent.

Rev. Rye Wrote:More of a matter of linguistics than anything else. This was in the time when just saying 1787 wasn't self explanatory.

if that were the case, they could refer to is as AD, as that did exist at that time, or at very least in the year of christ's birth. saying in the year of our lord implies devotion. otherwise "our lord" would not be there.