(December 5, 2012 at 1:25 am)Waratah Wrote: For enough money I can apply "earth" to mean whatever you want to make sense for whatever you want. Until you provide me with enough incentive I will stick with common sense and not behave like a christian fundamentalist.

The incentive is to not appear to behave like a fundamentalist, but that's what you do when you take the position of 100% literal truth, now isn't it?
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(December 5, 2012 at 4:31 am)catfish Wrote:

(December 5, 2012 at 1:25 am)Waratah Wrote: For enough money I can apply "earth" to mean whatever you want to make sense for whatever you want. Until you provide me with enough incentive I will stick with common sense and not behave like a christian fundamentalist.

The incentive is to not appear to behave like a fundamentalist, but that's what you do when you take the position of 100% literal truth, now isn't it?
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I am reading it literally, yes. Truth .

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this thread will be entirely comprised of Drich avoiding answering any questions, and presuming victory upon successfully managing to change the subject whenever confronted with something he can't answer.

EG. Where's the hard, testable, verifiable evidence that a god of any sort exists and, further, impacts on the daily lives of everyone on the planet both past, present, and will continue to do so in the future? (If any reply is forthcoming [or, rather, if this is not utterly ignored] Commence tangential, verbose, and irreverent retort).

It's wrong to assume that atheists question the attributes of any god or gods (in the OP the whole "if god is good why does it allow evil to occur?" question is posed). Rather, we question the existence of a god per se. We simply utilise these points against the person who posits them, as it generally highlights some of the logical inconsistencies that lead us to question in the existence of such deities in the first place.

@ Drich, I know that you have decide to have a break, but it is not Friday yet. Still unanswered questions from my last post.

@ catfish, you had given me alist of meanings "The word for "earth" was הארץ , nf. country, land; earth, ground, geo-; territory"

My question: In what context do you think it was used for in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2?

(December 5, 2012 at 5:00 pm)Waratah Wrote: @ catfish, you had given me alist of meanings "The word for "earth" was הארץ , nf. country, land; earth, ground, geo-; territory"

My question: In what context do you think it was used for in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2?

This is where I avoid the question as it's kinda pointless. What other people believe doesn't matter as to what you believe, unless you are sheeple...

Besides that, I'm too busy laughing at the fact that it is a literalist, fundamentalist, atheist who is taking a 100% literal stance... (you should research the origins of the OT)
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(December 5, 2012 at 8:09 pm)catfish Wrote:

(December 5, 2012 at 5:00 pm)Waratah Wrote: @ catfish, you had given me alist of meanings "The word for "earth" was הארץ , nf. country, land; earth, ground, geo-; territory"

My question: In what context do you think it was used for in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2?

This is where I avoid the question as it's kinda pointless. What other people believe doesn't matter as to what you believe, unless you are sheeple...

(My bold 2nd part only)Gave you a chance so this could be civil, trying to flame again, you sir are gutless. Very simple question on your opinion on the meaning of a word that you gave a list of meanings and your response "pointless". Well butt the fuck out of the conversation if you think it is pointless. I bet you won't

Quote:Besides that, I'm too busy laughing at the fact that it is a literalist, fundamentalist, atheist who is taking a 100% literal stance...

Please back up your statement that I am a fundamentalist. Reading part of a story literally does not make me a fundamentalist. Also prove that it was 100%

Quote:(you should research the origins of the OT)

Why? Don't worry I know you will not answer the question because your are a gutless fuck.

What really is your point for speaking to me other than to flame.

Quote:You do know that the Hebrew Bible was meant to provoke thought and discussion, don't you?

(My bold) Have you not heard of people believing in god creating everything. I am sure at least some people believe the OT is not just thought provoking. This was from you first post, I was going to let it go but you have continued, so fuck you dick head.

Quote:So, if you can apply "earth" to mean "matter", it may make sense, but I bet that you can't do that.

Being a dick head in your first post to me. Since it was your first I let it go, but you have continued to be a flamer so, go fuck yourself dick head.

(December 5, 2012 at 5:00 pm)Waratah Wrote: @ Drich, I know that you have decide to have a break, but it is not Friday yet. Still unanswered questions from my last post.

@ catfish, you had given me alist of meanings "The word for "earth" was הארץ , nf. country, land; earth, ground, geo-; territory"

My question: In what context do you think it was used for in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2?

Let do the top 5 and go from there.

(December 5, 2012 at 9:19 pm)Waratah Wrote:

(December 5, 2012 at 8:09 pm)catfish Wrote: This is where I avoid the question as it's kinda pointless. What other people believe doesn't matter as to what you believe, unless you are sheeple...

(My bold 2nd part only)Gave you a chance so this could be civil, trying to flame again, you sir are gutless. Very simple question on your opinion on the meaning of a word that you gave a list of meanings and your response "pointless". Well butt the fuck out of the conversation if you think it is pointless. I bet you won't

Quote:Besides that, I'm too busy laughing at the fact that it is a literalist, fundamentalist, atheist who is taking a 100% literal stance...

Please back up your statement that I am a fundamentalist. Reading part of a story literally does not make me a fundamentalist. Also prove that it was 100%

Quote:(you should research the origins of the OT)

Why? Don't worry I know you will not answer the question because your are a gutless fuck.

What really is your point for speaking to me other than to flame.

Quote:You do know that the Hebrew Bible was meant to provoke thought and discussion, don't you?

(My bold) Have you not heard of people believing in god creating everything. I am sure at least some people believe the OT is not just thought provoking. This was from you first post, I was going to let it go but you have continued, so fuck you dick head.

Quote:So, if you can apply "earth" to mean "matter", it may make sense, but I bet that you can't do that.

Being a dick head in your first post to me. Since it was your first I let it go, but you have continued to be a flamer so, go fuck yourself dick head.

I'm still waiting for you to exhibit that common sense...

Seriously, can you explain to me when literal doesn't mean 100%.
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(December 5, 2012 at 2:51 am)apophenia Wrote:

(December 5, 2012 at 12:35 am)Drich Wrote: It seems my spelling is not the only thing faulty. The bullingers i have is the Greek New testament. I was relying on some work i did on a similar discussion a few months ago, and simply got mixed up in reference material and in meaning. I went to: http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0922

My mistake.

Okay. Now that we actually have a correct citation, let's go back and examine your exegesis. You actually posted the translation from the Amplified Bible, I am quoting your expansion on the matter.

(December 3, 2012 at 6:05 pm)Drich Wrote: Completely empty of what? See this is where we would default to the Blue letter BIBLE:
The Hebrew word that is translated into the term 'completely empty" is:בהו bohuw
Which means with out life, or completely empty of any type of life.
This is underscored by how this same word is used in Isa 34:11. Now as water is not alive we know the Hebrew word is further supported by this passage, and when we put everything in it's proper context Gen 1:1 God created the Heavens and the EARTH, we know it to mean God created All of the Heavens and a Completed Earth (Rocks Minierals and Water minus dry land and life) as per verse 3 and 4.

The first problem is that, as any dictionary can tell you, the word 'empty' is an adjective, whereas the concordance you cite clearly indicates that bohu(w) is a masculine noun. Now I freely confess to knowing nothing about Hebrew grammar, but grammar units 4 and 5 at Hebrew 4 Christians . com indicates about what I would have guessed, they function much the same as in English. So your exegesis is attempting to defend a translation in which bohu(w) is translated as an English adjective, when it's clear from your own concordance that this exegesis, translating it as 'empty', is likely a misleading translation. You reference Isaiah 34:11 to back up your exegesis. Good for you! Additional lines of evidence are always welcome! Except that from a quick perusal of an interlinear bible (here), and even more clearly in a parallel bible (), it's clear that it is used as a noun meaning 'emptiness' or 'nothingness' or 'chaos' or 'confusion' - all nouns - in the verse of Isaiah referenced, not as an adjective describing the condition of something. Moreover, when we look at the Amplified bible's translation of bohu(w) in Isaiah 34:11, "But the pelican and the porcupine will possess it; the owl and the bittern and the raven will dwell in it. And He will stretch over it [Edom] the measuring line of confusion and the plummet stones of chaos [over its nobles]," we find that it too is translated as a noun instead of an adjective. I think what likely got you confused was the use of the word 'void' as an English word defining the meaning of the term bohu(w); indeed, the English word 'void' can be either a noun or an adjective, but that says nothing about the actual grammatical function of the Hebrew word whose usage you are trying to claim corresponds to 'empty'.

I can't wait to see how you spin this one.

No spin just scriptural context, and we have to look a little deeper into the Hebrew. If you REALLY REALLY want a proper exegesis this is study (or one like it I can find my orginal work/notes) is what my orginal arguement was built on: http://www.wordexplain.com/Word_Study_tohu_wa_bohu.html

(December 5, 2012 at 9:45 pm)catfish Wrote:

(December 5, 2012 at 9:19 pm)Waratah Wrote:

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(My bold 2nd part only)Gave you a chance so this could be civil, trying to flame again, you sir are gutless. Very simple question on your opinion on the meaning of a word that you gave a list of meanings and your response "pointless". Well butt the fuck out of the conversation if you think it is pointless. I bet you won'tPlease back up your statement that I am a fundamentalist. Reading part of a story literally does not make me a fundamentalist. Also prove that it was 100%Why? Don't worry I know you will not answer the question because your are a gutless fuck.

What really is your point for speaking to me other than to flame.
(My bold) Have you not heard of people believing in god creating everything. I am sure at least some people believe the OT is not just thought provoking. This was from you first post, I was going to let it go but you have continued, so fuck you dick head.
Being a dick head in your first post to me. Since it was your first I let it go, but you have continued to be a flamer so, go fuck yourself dick head.

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I'm still waiting for you to exhibit that common sense...

Gee whiz you got me there.

Quote:Seriously, can you explain to me when literal doesn't mean 100%.
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I can