Your question isn't a question... btw Brian, when did you stop beating your wife?

(January 5, 2013 at 3:31 pm)Tiberius Wrote: "Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?" is a loaded question, and a logical fallacy.

At the very most, it only denies an absolutist version of omnipotence that almost nobody believes in in the first place. The question could really be asked this way: "Can God make square circles?". Most theists I've talked to believe in a version of omnipotence in which God can perform every action that is logically possible.

This. God still acts in accordance to his laws and reality, and also cannot make someone/thing greater than himself since he is the greatest.

(January 5, 2013 at 3:28 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: I think what Epicurus deduced about God by exploring his role in evil is relevant here since it relates to matters of omnipotence, etc.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

well maybe freewill came with a package, and as God created a universe that works best when it is in harmony with his ultimate Good, it came to the present state by the first creature that choose to follow a will other than Gods as to do evil is to choose against Gods will. The havoc that was caused was not due to God's will but rather the fallen angels, our ancestors and their choices and our choices, the reason he allows evil is to allow freewill but as God knows the final outcome He has deemed the finate suffering as worth whatever GOD has seen to be the final but infinate Good end. He couldn't just change the universes rules to fit folk that didn't align with his will but that would have meant changing himself as well and as he Is perfect to change would have been wrong. So when the consequences of Evil has been worked through to completion he will make a new fresh and Perfect universe free from those who are a malign influence in that perfect universe.

(January 5, 2013 at 3:31 pm)Tiberius Wrote: "Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?" is a loaded question, and a logical fallacy.

At the very most, it only denies an absolutist version of omnipotence that almost nobody believes in in the first place. The question could really be asked this way: "Can God make square circles?". Most theists I've talked to believe in a version of omnipotence in which God can perform every action that is logically possible.

I don't see that as a loaded question.

Square circles is simply another example.

"Can god lie"
"Can god make a square circle"
"Is god capable of murder"

Any one of those examples creates a contradiction.

If he can lie, then you could never know if he is good or bad or anything about his intent. If he cant lie, then he is not all powerful.

"Square circle", flat out contradiction and physical impossiblity and logical impossibility.

"Capable of murder"

If he can, then he cannot be considered moral. (murder, meaning criminal, not self defense). Murdering out of jealousy seems to be the OT God and Revelation character's motif.

If he cannot murder out of jeolousy, for example, again, you could not call him all powerful.

All of those are examples of why, as a concept, as a claim, not as a real thing, but as a claim, makes the idea of "all powerful" as an atribute an absurd claim.

The reason it works for theists is purly because they have assumed "he can do what he wants", and as soon as a person swallows that they can shift the goal posts all over the place and avoid the contradictions.

Wow. That made no sense at all. I don't think words work the way you think they do.

(January 5, 2013 at 3:44 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote:

(January 5, 2013 at 3:28 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: I think what Epicurus deduced about God by exploring his role in evil is relevant here since it relates to matters of omnipotence, etc.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

well maybe freewill came with a package, and as God created a universe that works best when it is in harmony with his ultimate Good, it came to the present state by the first creature that choose to follow a will other than Gods as to do evil is to choose against Gods will. The havoc that was caused was not due to God's will but rather the fallen angels, our ancestors and their choices and our choices, the reason he allows evil is to allow freewill but as God knows the final outcome He has deemed the finate suffering as worth whatever GOD has seen to be the final but infinate Good end. He couldn't just change the universes rules to fit folk that didn't align with his will but that would have meant changing himself as well and as he Is perfect to change would have been wrong. So when the consequences of Evil has been worked through to completion he will make a new fresh and Perfect universe free from those who are a malign influence in that perfect universe.

Why does freewill come with the price of evil? And if he will create a perfect universe free from those with evil tendencies in the end, could he not have done that in the beginning?

(January 5, 2013 at 3:44 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: well maybe freewill came with a package, and as God created a universe that works best when it is in harmony with his ultimate Good, it came to the present state by the first creature that choose to follow a will other than Gods as to do evil is to choose against Gods will. The havoc that was caused was not due to God's will but rather the fallen angels, our ancestors and their choices and our choices, the reason he allows evil is to allow freewill but as God knows the final outcome He has deemed the finate suffering as worth whatever GOD has seen to be the final but infinate Good end. He couldn't just change the universes rules to fit folk that didn't align with his will but that would have meant changing himself as well and as he Is perfect to change would have been wrong. So when the consequences of Evil has been worked through to completion he will make a new fresh and Perfect universe free from those who are a malign influence in that perfect universe.

Perfect. So you agree your god is not omnipotent?

(January 5, 2013 at 3:54 pm)Shell B Wrote: Wow. That made no sense at all. I don't think words work the way you think they do.

You talking to me or the theist?

If you are talking to me.

To me it does not matter what example you want to use. Once you start setting parameters on the claim "all powerful" you have defeted the concept.

"all" in "all powerful" means can do anything and everything. That includes being illogical. I like my explinations to reality to be logical not illogical.

It still boils down to the theist's starting point being "he can do what he wants" which allows them to move the goal posts to avoid inconsistancies in logic.

(January 5, 2013 at 3:57 pm)Psykhronic Wrote:

(January 5, 2013 at 3:44 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: well maybe freewill came with a package, and as God created a universe that works best when it is in harmony with his ultimate Good, it came to the present state by the first creature that choose to follow a will other than Gods as to do evil is to choose against Gods will. The havoc that was caused was not due to God's will but rather the fallen angels, our ancestors and their choices and our choices, the reason he allows evil is to allow freewill but as God knows the final outcome He has deemed the finate suffering as worth whatever GOD has seen to be the final but infinate Good end. He couldn't just change the universes rules to fit folk that didn't align with his will but that would have meant changing himself as well and as he Is perfect to change would have been wrong. So when the consequences of Evil has been worked through to completion he will make a new fresh and Perfect universe free from those who are a malign influence in that perfect universe.

Why does freewill come with the price of evil? And if he will create a perfect universe free from those with evil tendencies in the end, could he not have done that in the beginning?

maybe you should ask him. lol but more seriously as i'm not God I can only speculate God made man different from the Angels and was meant for a different kind of relationship with God than the Angels as part of that different relationship God wanted us to Grow towards loving him with our freewill rather than an instant choice as the Angels made as they had the full picture at start. So in order to grow we had to live in Gods will as we grew. He couldn't just eliminate the possibility of us acting against his will as the essence of free will is the choice to do evil or good. In the second Universe only those who have made the choice to love God so therefore capable of living in a universe that reflects God without disturbing it will be left. The others by their own choice to choose other than God, (and as to why people would make that choice I don't know the answer) , will be sent to a place where God does not exist as they have rejected God.