Thoughts?

Discovered. It was not created (the ratio always existed, whether we were aware of it or not), therefore could not have been invented.

It all depends on whether the concepts of mathematics are independent of a conscious mind (i.e. they have always existed) or if mathematics can only exist whithin a conscious mind, like morality.

(March 6, 2013 at 7:14 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: It all depends on whether the concepts of mathematics are independent of a conscious mind (i.e. they have always existed) or if mathematics can only exist whithin a conscious mind, like morality.

Easy now, this is the maths subforum. Philosophy is down the hall.

I understand the discovered position, but personally I lean toward invented. And yes, I guess it's more for the philosophy section, somewhere near the tree falling in the forest.

(March 6, 2013 at 7:39 pm)John V Wrote: I understand the discovered position, but personally I lean toward invented. And yes, I guess it's more for the philosophy section, somewhere near the tree falling in the forest.

Yeah, I understand that position as well, and recognize that absent consciousness, mathematical concepts lose meaning, whether they exist independently or not.

Interesting question, and not quite as simple as it appears on the surface.

(March 6, 2013 at 7:44 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(March 6, 2013 at 7:39 pm)John V Wrote: I understand the discovered position, but personally I lean toward invented. And yes, I guess it's more for the philosophy section, somewhere near the tree falling in the forest.

Yeah, I understand that position as well, and recognize that absent consciousness, mathematical concepts lose meaning, whether they exist independently or not.

Interesting question, and not quite as simple as it appears on the surface.

Really? wake up!

Is universal gravitational constant discovered or invented, how about speed of light? Planck constant? Discovered or invented? Elementary charge?

(March 6, 2013 at 8:39 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(March 6, 2013 at 7:44 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Yeah, I understand that position as well, and recognize that absent consciousness, mathematical concepts lose meaning, whether they exist independently or not.

Interesting question, and not quite as simple as it appears on the surface.

Really? wake up!

Is universal gravitational constant discovered or invented, how about speed of light? Planck constant? Discovered or invented? Elementary charge?

You're conflating mathematics and physics. We're discussing the nature of the ration of diameter to circumference in a perfect circle. Are perfect circles found in nature? I'm not aware of any, though I do not necessarily doubt they exist. Does the concept of a perfect circle hold any meaning absent a consciousness capable of contemplating one? I'm not certain. How can you be?

(March 6, 2013 at 7:31 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(March 6, 2013 at 7:14 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: It all depends on whether the concepts of mathematics are independent of a conscious mind (i.e. they have always existed) or if mathematics can only exist whithin a conscious mind, like morality.

Easy now, this is the maths subforum. Philosophy is down the hall.

Haha, but to efficiently answer the question we need to delve into philosophy! If maths is just a human construct (which I think it is, because e.g. geometry has heaps of concepts that can't be observed in nature e.g. parallel lines) then it can't be discovered as it wasn't "out there" to be discovered. Therefore it was invented.

(March 6, 2013 at 8:39 pm)Chuck Wrote: Really? wake up!

Is universal gravitational constant discovered or invented, how about speed of light? Planck constant? Discovered or invented? Elementary charge?

Really Chuck.

You can't actually create a perfect circle, it's determined by the length of the blocks which you use to build it. You could build a circle out of hydrogen atoms all around the universe, I think you need the first 39 decimal places of Pi or so to build a circle that size to that precision - but it will still only be an approximate circle and not a perfect circle (obviously it's not perfect until you need to use an infinite number of decimals of Pi). A circle is a regular polygon where the number of sides approaches infinity. Pi is simply the answer to the question what is the ratio of the length of the sides of a regular polygon to the average diameter "as the number of sides approach infinity"?