OK...so Christians believe we are all so bad that we deserve hell, and those who are saved are saved by grace, but they are still so bad they deserve God's wrath.

Now I dunno - I hate the idea of thinking of myself as a bad/sinful person. Why do many Christians have pride and good self-esteem?

This kind of implies their nature rejects the doctrine.

(March 7, 2013 at 6:31 am)MysticKnight Wrote: OK...so Christians believe we are all so bad that we deserve hell, and those who are saved are saved by grace, but they are still so bad they deserve God's wrath.

Now I dunno - I hate the idea of thinking of myself as a bad/sinful person. Why do many Christians have pride and good self-esteem?

We have pride because we are still of our sin natures. We have "good self esteem" because our self worth is not tied to a morality/self righteousness that demands we do pretend to be better than what we are.

In other words we have found contentment and peace even though we know we are fundmentally flawed.

Some of the assholes believe a woman was conned into eating an apple by a snake and therefore all of humanity was condemned.

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Really pretty fucking ridiculous when you think about it.

What Drich said, just want to add that this is covered in the latter part of Romans 7.

I don't know, believing you are worthy of being eternally tortured is a pretty bad idea of yourself. It seems very contradictory to then say, but we still can feel good enough about ourselves and not exaggerate beyond that.

(March 8, 2013 at 10:14 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know, believing you are worthy of being eternally tortured is a pretty bad idea of yourself.

Sure is, that's why people reject free salvation - you have to admit you're in need of salvation.

Quote:It seems very contradictory to then say, but we still can feel good enough about ourselves and not exaggerate beyond that.

I feel bad about myself as is. I feel good about myself in Christ.

(March 7, 2013 at 11:30 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Some of the assholes believe a woman was conned into eating an apple by a snake and therefore all of humanity was condemned.

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Really pretty fucking ridiculous when you think about it.

Indeed it is.. However others think our condemnation resides in our own ablity to not sin, that we somehow are condemned by, and held accountable to our own actions.

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(March 8, 2013 at 9:15 am)John V Wrote: What Drich said, just want to add that this is covered in the latter part of Romans 7.

Honestly i don't think they care.

Sometimes 'we' are asked questions just to see if we can answer them.

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(March 8, 2013 at 10:14 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know, believing you are worthy of being eternally tortured is a pretty bad idea of yourself.
It seems very contradictory to then say, but we still can feel good enough about ourselves and not exaggerate beyond that.

Our eternal seperation has absolutly nothing to do with how one views himself.

We have an impossiable standard to meet. If the standard was designed to be unattainable then only a fool measures his self worth by it. It is unattainable for a reason. The reason is so that all are forced to decide whether or not he wants to spend an eternity with God.

Whether you pick yes or no, has nothing to do with self worth. It is a desision we all must make. No need to cry over it, just choose.

(March 7, 2013 at 11:28 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 7, 2013 at 6:31 am)MysticKnight Wrote: OK...so Christians believe we are all so bad that we deserve hell, and those who are saved are saved by grace, but they are still so bad they deserve God's wrath.

Now I dunno - I hate the idea of thinking of myself as a bad/sinful person. Why do many Christians have pride and good self-esteem?

We have pride because we are still of our sin natures. We have "good self esteem" because our self worth is not tied to a morality/self righteousness that demands we do pretend to be better than what we are.

In other words we have found contentment and peace even though we know we are fundmentally flawed.

No, you have pride because of of social structure and evolution. The placebo of believing the sun was a god served the Egyptians well for 3,000 years. I am sure they were as proud of their culture and monuments to myth as you are now to yours.

Pride is both a "thought crime" and actually rather a helpful emotion. Taking pride in ones work is a good thing surely?

(March 8, 2013 at 3:47 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Pride is both a "thought crime" and actually rather a helpful emotion. Taking pride in ones work is a good thing surely?

Unless you are afforded the luxury of possessing the realistic outlook afforded by maintaining a constant depressive stupor.