Hello, I'm new to this forum and registered myself here because this question makes me thinking a lot.

What I want to say with this provocative title is that it seems to me like you can compare theism with relativism.

All the empirical sciences are a good (or the best) way to explain our nature and physical phenomenons but they're all based on the premise that our image of the reality depending on the reliability of our senses is true or that it gets close to it. (Do you know Plato's allegory of the cave? It describes exactly what I mean.) And we have absolutely no evidence for this premise.

But I nevertheless "believe" that the reality looks like my senses pretend it to look like (so it's relativism). The reason for this is that I'm feeling better when I think I can explain the world. But that's only an emotional reason and not reasonable. So I "believe" that I'm right just because of emotions and my image of reality is based on a premise. In my opinion this doesn't differ much from religiousness. And due to the way we handle the uncertain information we got from the sciences, I think we also could be called fanatics.

So what's your opinion about this and Plato's allegory of the cave? Do you think that it's true that relativists don't differ much from religious men?

Plato's allegory of the cave is false. It doesn't represent reality.

The real allegory is that we all the see sun, but that we don't see all that it shines upon and thus manifests.

The idea of justice goodness we all share it as far as the sun analogy goes. It's details and it's applications of the intention, we don't have.

The Sun makes you see, it gives light to things. We all see pure justice. It's in our hearts. Even the darkest heart sees it, and it condemns him.

It's application takes logic and reasoning and understanding.

Two people can have the same intention of justice and the light of justice is seen by both, but they don't have knowledge of the application.

The problem is seeing the objects. The world the sun shines upon is shaped by our knowledge of the world.

The light is not enough. The Sun we all see. The world it shines upon, we aren't all aware of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScGPRsHSkaE

Everything represents reality, nothing represents reality. Everything is real, but nothing is real.

Sooner that MysticKnight lets go of his extraordinary faith... happier he'll be, and less brain trauma he'll cause

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(May 16, 2013 at 3:11 pm)krautpasta Wrote: Hello, I'm new to this forum and registered myself here because this question makes me thinking a lot.

Welcome. Thinking is a dangerous pastime.

Quote:What I want to say with this provocative title is that it seems to me like you can compare theism with relativism.

'We' relativists? I'll say that's provokative, that you'd include 'us' in your question.

Quote:All the empirical sciences are a good (or the best) way to explain our nature and physical phenomenons but they're all based on the premise that our image of the reality depending on the reliability of our senses is true or that it gets close to it. (Do you know Plato's allegory of the cave? It describes exactly what I mean.) And we have absolutely no evidence for this premise.

You sound very certain of that.

Quote:But I nevertheless "believe" that the reality looks like my senses pretend it to look like (so it's relativism). The reason for this is that I'm feeling better when I think I can explain the world. But that's only an emotional reason and not reasonable. So I "believe" that I'm right just because of emotions and my image of reality is based on a premise. In my opinion this doesn't differ much from religiousness. And due to the way we handle the uncertain information we got from the sciences, I think we also could be called fanatics.

Reality DOES look like your senses perceive it... to you. How it looks to you is not how it looks to another. Others don't have a reality that they can SEE, but their's is also how reality is to them.

Odd, when I think I can explain the world, I feel terrible. I like to attempt to do so, but I hold no illusions: I will never manage it.

Emotional reasons are necessarily reasonable, otherwise they wouldn't be reasons. Do you believe, or do you not believe? To what extent?

But you're right: the knowing of anything is faith-based, which is also is the nature of religious knowledge. If you have no faith in anything but logic, you are a solipsist. If you have not faith in even that: you are crazy.

Fanatics are willing to die and more for their beliefs... few people, relativistic or religious or otherwise, can say the same.

Quote:So what's your opinion about this and Plato's allegory of the cave? Do you think that it's true that relativists don't differ much from religious men?

I think that Plato could have phrased his argument better.

I do not think it's true, as relativists have no holy books, no dogma, and no code to which all relativists adhere to... indeed, such would be quite nonrelativistic.

(May 16, 2013 at 6:42 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: Sooner that MysticKnight lets go of his extraordinary faith... happier he'll be, and less brain trauma he'll cause

Happiness is overrated and something in the world can occur that will make you lose it anytime. Love, compassion, honour, holiness, integrity, that's something that stays.

You can live to be happy. I rather embrace the sadness of the poor, oppressed, suffering, starving, then constantly try to ignore them by wasting my time trying to be happy.

I won't make the excuse there is nothing I can do about it. Of course, without trying, nothing can be done.

And I won't just join some organization and think I performed my duty.

I sought wisdom because I wanted to know how I ought to live.

In that search, I've come to know I have a soul, I have a spiritual sword that fights me when I ignore it and strengthens me when I embrace, and my actions are alive. But I don't care if someone does believes that or not.

What is important to me, is that we stand up for what we believe is good and work hard for what we believe is good.

I always believed in the quest for the truth. I never thought it would burden me with such a heavy duty. But it has.

I sought wisdom, and it has filled me with sadness and heavy burden of a sense of duty.

Happiness is overrated. I want myself to be with the tortured. I want myself to be with the oppressed. All the time.

I want to remember the pain of the starving. I want that to motivate me.

I rather embrace sadness and that be my motivation.

(May 17, 2013 at 12:00 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Happiness is overrated and something in the world can occur that will make you lose it anytime. Love, compassion, honour, holiness, integrity, that's something that stays.

Love fades, compassion disappears, honor dies, holinesses self-destructs, integrity is bought.

Everything will disappear. Happiness will disappear too.

Quote:You can live to be happy. I rather embrace the sadness of the poor, oppressed, suffering, starving, then constantly try to ignore them by wasting my time trying to be happy.

Oh, I'm sure an embrace of sadness will make the poor, oppressed, suffering, and starving feel much better.

Happiness and ignoring people are not one and the same. Infact, they're completely unconnected. Would you care to demonstrate how this would be otherwise?

Quote:I won't make the excuse there is nothing I can do about it. Of course, without trying, nothing can be done.

All sorts of things can be done without trying.

Quote:And I won't just join some organization and think I performed my duty.

Because one poor hooker is going to make a global difference to a population of 7 billion? Right.

Quote:I sought wisdom because I wanted to know how I ought to live.

Good for you. Did you also seek candy? If not, then what a huge waste time seeking worthlessness

Quote:In that search, I've come to know I have a soul, I have a spiritual sword that fights me when I ignore it and strengthens me when I embrace, and my actions are alive. But I don't care if someone does believes that or not.

Spiritual sword? Must be a lightsaber.

One of only two kinds that comes to my mind right now. Is it a projection of your aura, perhaps?

Quote:What is important to me, is that we stand up for what we believe is good and work hard for what we believe is good.

And if I happen to believe that the butchery of every human upon this planet is good?

Quote:I always believed in the quest for the truth. I never thought it would burden me with such a heavy duty. But it has.

Yes. Heavy doody is indeed a burden. Eat less, poop more, less burden. That's God's honest truth.

Quote:I sought wisdom, and it has filled me with sadness and heavy burden of a sense of duty.

You and your sadness. Oh boo hoo.

Quote:Happiness is overrated. I want myself to be with the tortured. I want myself to be with the oppressed. All the time.

If you want yourself to be with the torture, go crucify yourself. If you want to be with the oppressed, go to hell.

Simple

Quote:I want to remember the pain of the starving. I want that to motivate me.

Starving painfully is a motivation alright... for food. I take it you're hungry all the time?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfLtA8SkmVw

Quote:I rather embrace sadness and that be my motivation.

You're a very sad person.

(May 16, 2013 at 3:11 pm)krautpasta Wrote: So what's your opinion about this and Plato's allegory of the cave? Do you think that it's true that relativists don't differ much from religious men?

I believe Plato was right in stating that we can always only get indirect information of the world. Imagine your mind to be the captain of a sub-marine, having to trust his instruments and readings to determine what is going on around him. Same for the mind, the mind has to trust the sense organs. Even more, the mind actually constructs the space around us from the information that arrives. A gross simplification, but I believe delivers the intuition: The photon only ever hits our retina, it is the mind that projects the light source out into space and says "based on this or that metric I can determine that the objects must be this and that far away", then it constructs our representation of the space around us.

But I would still say trusting our own senses and our own reasoning is vastly superior to merely copying someone elses senses and reasoning as written down in some religious book. Scientific books differ in that I could if I wanted verify the information with my own senses and reasoning.

I can't do the same with whether Jesus walked over water or not. Until further evidence arrives I'll assume he just stepped in a puddle and simple people went "Wow, lets write that down".

Little indian boy

I can't do the same with whether Jesus walked over water or not. Until further evidence arrives I'll assume he just stepped in a puddle and simple people went "Wow, lets write that down".
[/quote]
All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. Ecclesiastes 1:7 written aproximatly 1000 BC . Galileo in 1630 is given credit for discovering this cycle of evaporation and condensation, Oddly Galileo was a theist, who would have had access to the scriptures back in those days ! He also was a early pioneer of a freely suspended circular earth, of which the scriptures also atest to. Isaiah 40:22 It is He {God} that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,..../ Job 26 ...., and hangeth the earth upon nothing. go figar

I remember as a child when I first saw something on TV about kids starving and dying in Africa, I was shocked. I was filled with sadness. I talked to teachers about in school. In fact, I thought not much people knew, because otherwise they would've done something or not be all happy.

Now after much time, when I see that, what do I do. Nothing. I am not shocked. It's normal. Everyone knows.

Suffering is brushed aside. And some of us go on about joining organizations (I was part of one) that work for the poor and oppressed. And it alleviates that guilt of doing nothing to a degree.

Truth is even when we haven't done practically nothing: we haven't done nearly enough.

Society can praise you all it wants. We vote and we think we are empowered. Truth is we have no idea what's going on.

We prefer to remain ignorant and blindly trust others.

At the same time, knowledge of oppression here and there....does what?

Some of us cared a lot but then convinced ourselves we are powerless. We embrace the culture that constantly turns it's eyes away from the problems of the world and concentrates on having good time.

You can do what you want with your life.

Some of us maybe powerless, but others, we have a lot of potential.

You can live for whatever purpose you want.

You choose to be happy or sad. I can chose to be happy. I just rather not.

I can live to be happy. I just rather not.

As a former shiite Muslim, I remember crying for Imam Hussain and his companions that died for rising up for justice.

As for what it will do for oppressed and suffering. Even if it does nothing, I rather trying to remember their pain and that it motivates me to try harder.

Happiness makes you try little. And when you do little, you want to feel good about it.

Sadness reminds you, you been lazy. You haven't done much. You've ignored them.

Sadness makes you realize there is a long road ahead of you and you may never be satisfied with your efforts.

Happiness makes you clap for yourself for every half baked effort.

(May 17, 2013 at 5:49 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I remember as a child when I first saw something on TV about kids starving and dying in Africa, I was shocked. I was filled with sadness. I talked to teachers about in school. In fact, I thought not much people knew, because otherwise they would've done something or not be all happy.

Funny, when I heard of their plight: I was not moved an iota. I'm still not moved.

You're not a history major, are you?

Quote:Now after much time, when I see that, what do I do. Nothing. I am not shocked. It's normal. Everyone knows.

Suffering is brushed aside. And some of us go on about joining organizations (I was part of one) that work for the poor and oppressed. And it alleviates that guilt of doing nothing to a degree.

Suffering can be a known quantity, and not cared about. Me? I have exactly zero guilt for my neutral Jing

I'm glad that you don't feel guilty for something you didn't do, though.

Quote:Truth is even when we haven't done practically nothing: we haven't done nearly enough.

Reading that hurt my brain. You should stop doing that

Quote:Society can praise you all it wants. We vote and we think we are empowered. Truth is we have no idea what's going on.

We prefer to remain ignorant and blindly trust others.

At the same time, knowledge of oppression here and there....does what?

That's false, actually: we all are very sure of what's going on, but we are also, each of us, totally incorrect.

We prefer to think we're perceptive, and blindly trust ourselves.

Squat.

Quote:Some of us cared a lot but then convinced ourselves we are powerless. We embrace the culture that constantly turns it's eyes away from the problems of the world and concentrates on having good time.

You are powerless. If you weren't, you might as well still have a good time while you fix whatever things what you want fixed.

Quote:You can do what you want with your life.

Some of us maybe powerless, but others, we have a lot of potential.

You can live for whatever purpose you want.

You choose to be happy or sad. I can chose to be happy. I just rather not.

I can live to be happy. I just rather not.

I can't do what I want with my life, as it involves magic None of you have any potential, you are, all of you: worms. I cannot live for whatever purpose I want, as it involves magic

I don't choose to be happy or sad, I simply am. You can simply be, and experience the full variety of emotions, from happiness to sadness to anger... but you're not interested in perspective.

I hope you die a sad and wretched creature too.

Quote:As a former shiite Muslim, I remember crying for Imam Hussain and his companions that died for rising up for justice.

As a person who never cared, I mock your memory. Maybe I can elicit anger.

Quote:As for what it will do for oppressed and suffering. Even if it does nothing, I rather trying to remember their pain and that it motivates me to try harder.

Happiness makes you try little. And when you do little, you want to feel good about it.

Sadness reminds you, you been lazy. You haven't done much. You've ignored them.

Sadness makes you realize there is a long road ahead of you and you may never be satisfied with your efforts.

Happiness makes you clap for yourself for every half baked effort.

Even if you accomplish *absolutely nothing*, you think that you trying harder will do anything? For that, you'd have to be able to accomplish something, and you would have demonstrated that you cannot.

Happiness is a central experience, accomplishment is a peripheral experience. You can feel good about what you do, but happiness comes from within. If you're a happy person, you can accomplish little for a long time without much effect upon yourself. Sadness is a demotivator... it makes you depressed, it makes you lethargic, it makes you cry like a little baby. That's right, little baby: you haven't done much, regardless of whether you ignore suffering or not.

You will never be satisfied with your efforts, but make no mistake: that is not on sadness. That's on you. Worthless.