This is all very nice but you seem to be striving to set yourself up as something beyond the environment you live in and supports you.

You are condoning the mutilation of our forests for your vegetarian utopia?

And you would rather see the billions of cattle, sheep, fowl and pigs have a lingering death due to 1080 poisoning rather than be slaughtered quickly (and hopefully humanely) for food and leather? We have a crisis of goats and horses here in Oz (amongst other feral animals) thanks to the simpering good intentions of vegans/ vegetarians they die a most horrible death or to die in a bushfire, but to you this is ok it is natural?

No. It seems to me you are striving to set yourself up above the ecosystem you live in and am using vegan/ vegetarianism as the "new religion" to do so. You find it works for you? = GREAT all kudos to you but it is NOT the panacea you are hoping for as I think around 50% of the total world population would die under such a regime...myself included.

No my dear, your ideology is as cruel as it is heartless to the animals you hope to protect and give a voice to. I think festive is right on the money. Get the better practices in place FIRST...THEN we can take it further IF humanity is able to do so. Right now you are just playing childish games assuming mr sheep and mr cow don't want to be killed.

(June 3, 2013 at 6:16 am)Forbinator Wrote: Wrong. This is obviously the childhood indoctrination talking. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028
There are also articles in the British Medical Journal and World Health Organisation publications.

I only eat meat once or twice a week and am aware that consuming it in masses is not very healthy.
I mainly limit my consumtion of meat for enviormental reasons.

Anyway.

Where do you get:

Calcium
Vitamin B
Iron

Quote:Leather production is very bad for the environment, and the chemicals used are dangerous for the workers who are exposed to them. http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archi...fault.aspx

Yeah yeah, Peta is certeinly the most unbiased and honest organisation on the entire planet, and it certeinly doesnt try to force any kind of agenda onto anyone.


What is your alternative for animals used in labs?

Do you condole acts of violence and the criminal destruction of property directed against institutions using animals for experiments?

(June 3, 2013 at 6:16 am)Forbinator Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 5:57 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: As I and others have stated "we need meat to achieve optimal health"

Wrong. This is obviously the childhood indoctrination talking. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028
There are also articles in the British Medical Journal and World Health Organisation publications.

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Leather production is very bad for the environment, and the chemicals used are dangerous for the workers who are exposed to them. http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archi...fault.aspx

Wrong Fornicator. I tried vegan/vegetarianism and was admitted (to hospital very ill) as an anorexic. Whilst I DO strive to have more vegetables in my diet than meat I NEED meat as I am unable to utilise the nutrition from vegetation.

You are just being childish as your precious ideology is being challenged. All in all ...It doesn't work for everyone and you must accept this. Petroleum products are far more dangerous than utilising leather, cotton, silk; which are all biodegradable..your petro-synthetics are not and will pollute your precious "farm-land" and also your "veggies" this is already happening and hence vegan/ vegetarianism isn't as healthy as you would like to think it is

(June 3, 2013 at 5:57 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: I like to live.

Me too! And so does any cow and her calf and any sheep and any camel, and we have as much or as little right to ask for a good life as they do.

I'm interested in this concept of "animal rights" of which you speak.
If you could provide examples of animal rights occurring in the natural world I would be most appreciative.

(June 3, 2013 at 4:44 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: One contributer in my case were the behavioral studies by Konrad Lorenz. I constantly tried to justify my vegetarianism and later veganism on scientific grounds. But constantly failed.

But you clearly are unable to justify your exploitation of animals either, so you have deferred to a default setting of continuing to exploit them. How are you deciding where to place the burden of proof (or justification)? Seemingly childhood indoctrination plays a role. Every time you buy food you actively make a choice: violence or non-violence. It takes some pretty powerful programming to make us actively choose violence.

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(June 3, 2013 at 6:28 am)Zen Badger Wrote: I'm interested in this concept of "animal rights" of which you speak.
If you could provide examples of animal rights occurring in the natural world I would be most appreciative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

(June 3, 2013 at 6:28 am)Forbinator Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 4:44 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: One contributer in my case were the behavioral studies by Konrad Lorenz. I constantly tried to justify my vegetarianism and later veganism on scientific grounds. But constantly failed.

But you clearly are unable to justify your exploitation of animals either, so you have deferred to a default setting of continuing to exploit them. How are you deciding where to place the burden of proof (or justification)? Seemingly childhood indoctrination plays a role. Every time you buy food you actively make a choice: violence or non-violence. It takes some pretty powerful programming to make us actively choose violence.

---

(June 3, 2013 at 6:28 am)Zen Badger Wrote: I'm interested in this concept of "animal rights" of which you speak.
If you could provide examples of animal rights occurring in the natural world I would be most appreciative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

No childhood indoctrination you silly fornicator, millions of years of evolution is to blame hence I think you are being childishly indoctrinated. Your arguments are weak and this "exploitation" you speak of is at the very heart of evolution.

Violence? don't make me puke! Look around you! This isn't some bloody Disney dream of a planet you live in! Come to Australia and we'll take you "out-Back" where you can be relieved of your childhood fantasies!

Yes my dear you have the "animal right to be slaughtered most inhumanely by predators" no consideration for you thoughts or "well being" will be given to you.

Stop living in the cities and get out amongst it...become a Hunter and just have a GOOD look at what is natural.

Hmmm.... if some of you ended up underweight and ill after going veggie or vegan, you were doing it very very wrong! Lol. I've only been in a hospital once in my life, and that was only because of a bad reaction to a cat. I've never had any health problems from not eating meat and consuming minimal eggs and dairy. I don't even make an attempt to "balance" my diet either. I just eat whatever I fancy.

(June 3, 2013 at 6:27 am)littleendian Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 5:57 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: I like to live.

Me too! And so does any cow and her calf and any sheep and any camel, and we have as much or as little right to ask for a good life as they do.

You have not had much time spent on a farm have you?

(June 3, 2013 at 6:28 am)Forbinator Wrote: But you clearly are unable to justify your exploitation of animals either, so you have deferred to a default setting of continuing to exploit them. How are you deciding where to place the burden of proof (or justification)? Seemingly childhood indoctrination plays a role. Every time you buy food you actively make a choice: violence or non-violence. It takes some pretty powerful programming to make us actively choose violence.

Wrong! I repeatedly stated that I considere humans to be supirior, we have a civilisation, greater awareness over our surroundings, are capable to learn and establish knowlege which are unrequired for simple survival, have surpassed the stage at which our behavior is primearely controled by our instincts and are capable of creative thought.

Only because you dont think that this is not a valid justification this does not mean that you are right.

The burden of proof is on you to show that I am wrong.

And all you did is make insultingly stupid statements which would be considered plain ans simple biggotry if it werent for your obvious stupidity.

Such as comparing the animal rights issue to the lesbian and gay rights movement as if gays and lesbians were somehow animals!