(June 3, 2013 at 7:17 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: All the B groups and Iron

http://veganeasy.org/Nutrition

Quote:And synthetics are MORE biodegradable? Poor argument.

Don't put words in my mouth. The point I'm making is that since leather is also highly damaging, the environmental argument is not strong enough to justify the animal suffering involved when compared to synthetics. Why should animals pay for our environmental degradation?

Quote:

(June 3, 2013 at 6:38 am)Forbinator Wrote: Given that animal-based food requires 6-10 x more land mass per kg of product than plant-based food, doesn't this offset any potential damage caused by cotton, hemp, polyester etc.? Overall land use in a "vegan utopia" is far less than in our current world, and involves less petrol consumption from milk tanks driving between farms every day, shipping of grain to feed animals, transport of animals etc.

No dispute there but your vegetarian utopia will destroy a great many ecosystems to feed the planet. Unless of course you condone the "culling" of 50% of the total world population that are unable to sustain a vegan/ vegetarian diet?

How can we be destroying more ecosystems if we're using less land? And there is plenty of nutritional information online to make sure everyone gets the nutrients they need. Worst case scenario: take a freaking vitamin pill!

Quote:But that is the thing isn't it? these sheep, cattle, fowl and pigs are NOT wild nor are they endemic to their respective environments. You seem to prefer a cruel and agonising death for these animals that were once domesticated in support of your ideology.

No I do not. It would actually be cruel to simply release all the farmed animals. We need to stop the breeding process and phase out production. As a compromise i'll even let you eat the ones who are alive on the condition that production stops! :p

(June 3, 2013 at 7:17 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: See there is the problem. You are NOT "saving lives" either animal nor human. You are just perpetuating the predator and prey cycle and the further pollution of our environment via exploitation of petrochemicals and seem to support Monsanto with it's GMO franchise. Otherwise how else are you going to feed 4 billion people (assuming you have "culled" all those who are unable genetically to be vegan/ vegetarians)

You really are starting to sound liken to a religion which you are railing against dearie.

Again I don't see how advocating a system that requires less land use can possibly be seen as worse for the environment. No, I don't support Monsanto. Ideally all crop production should be organic. All humans are naturally herbivorous (http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html), and the nutrition aspect has already been explained ad nauseum. Please provide me with the literature showing the "omnivore gene" that prevents 50% of humans being vegan?

(June 3, 2013 at 7:22 am)Forbinator Wrote: Whatever standards you use, they are yours. Calling yourself superior has never justified harming others, at least not in civilised society. I'm asking you why the fact that they're animals changes this, and you keep telling me it's because they're animals.

For the last time, humans and animals are different! Harming a human as a human isnt the same as harming an animal! Therefor you civilised sciety nonsence evaporates into dust.

I keep telling you that they are a different species! A infirior species! I outlined arguments detailing this, and you simply go back to arguing as if animals were not infirior and that you had already proven that , when in fact you have NOT!
I have given you the example of civilisation and you pretend as if animals were somehow already an equal part of that civilisation! Almoust everything you post is a pathetic whining bunch of falasies and selfimportent rubbish!

Other than that, you form of arguing is utterly dishonest. By simply saying that ones standerds are simply that persons standerds and no one elses in a attempt to discredit someone you are simply being lazy and looking for a way to get your opponent out without having any actual arguments.

So why keep debating with someone like you, who is not interested in having an argument, but soley interested in being right?

Actualy, you enter a debate already assuming that you are right and that you need not even pove this in any way, and simply dismiss everyone by stating that their standerds are their personal very own standerds.
You will not make yourself very popular here if you continue this bullshit!

Quote:And you continue to apply naturalistic fallacy in your reference to carnivores being bigots...

What a slimey dishonest cunt you are!!!

You stated I was a biggot for calling other species infirior, I pointed out that this way every species eating another species was biggoted. And after that you accuse me of using a fallacy! when in fact it is your very own fallacy!!!!!

Do you do that kind of stuff often! Using a nonsence argument and when being shown how nonsence it is accusing the one who refuted it of using the very nonsence argument!

Damn! I havent encountered such disgusting dishonesty in a very long time!!!!

Quote:"Love" has nothing to do with it, and I don't think any of us have mentioned it. Seems like another straw man to me. Application of justice however, that is important, particularly given that we already have certain basic animal cruelty laws that apply a type of justice in favour of animals. Your wording of using them to be "productive" is just a restatement of it being convenient to use them, and society only sticking to its ethics when it's convenient to do so.

society does stick to ethics because it is convinient.

double post

(June 3, 2013 at 6:36 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 6:27 am)littleendian Wrote: Me too! And so does any cow and her calf and any sheep and any camel, and we have as much or as little right to ask for a good life as they do.

You have not had much time spent on a farm have you?

I know enough about farms to know that you can only produce milk by separating a cow from her calf, which is terribly traumatizing for both the mother and the child. They are mammals like us so they form very tight mother-child bonds from the second the child is born. This is cruel and it is a high prices that others have to pay for you to enjoy dairy products, which are incredibly unnatural for us to eat (no other species drinks mothers milk beyond infancy and certainly not that of a different species).

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(June 3, 2013 at 7:37 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: I keep telling you that they are a different species! A infirior species!

You sound like the German of old!

And I really don't see where you have shown that because they're a different species and because they might have less efficient brains than we do means anything regarding the moral responsibilities we have towards them.

@Forbinator: Don't you also always get the feeling that there's something in the bush when people get so insulting and emotional in these kinds of discussions? Even people who claim to put reason above everything.

It is very dishonest in accusing a 2000 year old doctrine as the sole cause of omnivorism also. The thing is and will always be humans would be lunch in this so called "natural world" of vegan/ vegetarians. A cow can kill you just as easily as a rabbit or that cute little lamb's mother will rip your guts out.

So there is only the argument of the "quick clean Kill" that has any validity here I am thinking. All petitions to the "moral-high-ground" of vegan/vegetarianism is null and void beyond that of personal preference.

All kudos to those who are able to maintain a healthy life on such a diet, I and many like me are not able to achieve this.

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(June 3, 2013 at 7:42 am)littleendian Wrote: I know enough about farms to know that you can only produce milk by separating a cow from her calf, which is terribly traumatizing for both the mother and the child. They are mammals like us so they form very tight mother-child bonds from the second the child is born. This is cruel and it is a high prices that others have to pay for you to enjoy dairy products, which are incredibly unnatural for us to eat (no other species drinks mothers milk beyond infancy and certainly not that of a different species).

Then you know nothing of farms, the natural world, the world of man, nor much other than your own self importance and self aggrandisement ?

(June 3, 2013 at 7:42 am)littleendian Wrote: I know enough about farms to know that you can only produce milk by separating a cow from her calf, which is terribly traumatizing for both the mother and the child. They are mammals like us so they form very tight mother-child bonds from the second the child is born. This is cruel and it is a high prices that others have to pay for you to enjoy dairy products, which are incredibly unnatural for us to eat (no other species drinks mothers milk beyond infancy and certainly not that of a different species).

True indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4qQNi3WZdQ

Emotive and Veal is my favourite...you point?

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And yet you still happily delegate vegetables as low life and inferior and therefore fit for your consumption?

(June 3, 2013 at 7:49 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Emotive and Veal is my favourite...you point?

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And yet you still happily delegate vegetables as low life and inferior and therefore fit for your consumption?

Again: Plants don't have a central nervous system with which to "feel" pain or even sense organs with which to register painful stimuli in the first place. It wouldn't make evolutionary sense either. Plus, eating an apple or a pear or any other seed might even give them joy (if they could feel it) because that's what these are for, reproduction by animal consumption.

(June 3, 2013 at 7:42 am)littleendian Wrote: You sound like the German of old!

And I really don't see where you have shown that because they're a different species and because they might have less efficient brains than we do means anything regarding the moral responsibilities we have towards them.

I will list it again:

1:
We have built a civilisation, aquire knowlege unrequired for simple survival, and stand above simple instinct by using our concious mind mainly throughout our actions.
2:
Humans with brain deficiancies are still humans, so if one argues that not giving animals equal rights can not be justified with their infiriority, you will have to explain first why the differences between our species supposedly do not exist!

Quote:@Forbinator: Don't you also always get the feeling that there's something in the bush when people get so insulting and emotional in these kinds of discussions? Even people who claim to put reason above everything.

He used a fallacy, and when I used that in my reply in a overexaturated way to show him how fallacious his argument was he accused me of being the initial user of that fallacy!!!

That is cuntish disgusting dishonesty and this kind of behavior diserves nothing else than being pissed on!!!

Tell your lapdog to be less dishonest!!!!

Otherwhise, verbal abuse will be the only thing he will receive here.

(June 3, 2013 at 7:45 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Then you know nothing of farms, the natural world, the world of man, nor much other than your own self importance and self aggrandisement ?

I'm glad you can make that judgement based on the very limited information you have about me, but I won't accept it until you point out what exactly is wrong with the observation about what is necessary to produce cows milk.

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Please relax, there is plenty of reason for everyone here to be pissed off but I don't think that it'll help the discussion get to the core of the issue if we call each other names.

(June 3, 2013 at 7:56 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: 1:
We have built a civilisation, aquire knowlege unrequired for simple survival, and stand above simple instinct by using our concious mind mainly throughout our actions.

True, but what does this say about our supposed right to kill and torture other species? Nothing as far as I can see.

(June 3, 2013 at 7:56 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: 2:
Humans with brain deficiancies are still humans, so if one argues that not giving animals equal rights can not be justified with their infiriority, you will have to explain first why the differences between our species supposedly do not exist!

There are quantitative differences, of course, but no qualitative differences that would allow us to do whatever we please. And killing and torturing for our pleaseure really does require not only "less" moral responsibility toward the victim but absolutely none!

(June 3, 2013 at 7:56 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: Tell your lapdog to be less dishonest!!!!

I'm glad to say that Forb is not my laptog but my brother in arms and I'm glad (s)he's here, it's often times a lonely position to argue for the victims.