(August 8, 2013 at 3:52 am)ITChick Wrote: For this one you can use scripture. In order to convince me you will have to convince me that:
1) God exists
2) The Christian god is the correct one
3) If the Christian god exists he/she is not an evil bastard with some serious anger issues.

If you manage to comvince me of 3 I'll be more open to 1 and 2.

There is a post somewhere on these forums "Is God Evil". Go and tip your toes in :).

Humans need each other to survive. Those people who go around proclaiming: "I don't need nothing from nobody" are stupid. And I'm not just saying that because they use double n
Because of this I can say with a fair amount of confidence that anything that is bad for society is bad for the individual (me). Since society is made up of individuals, anything that is bad for an individual will have a negative impact on society. That includes individuals who do not contribute to society - they have friends and family who do.

I also needed to be convinced of all 3 of these things, so I appreciate your genuine perspective. In that case, I'll tackle 3) then 1) and 2). It will be somewhat lengthy, so I'll pm you or send you an email, unless for some reason you'd prefer it scattered through a forum thread..?

I completely agree. However, the corporate nature of human society does not negate the benefits of torture, which are worth noting. For example, in all recorded human history there was nothing that came close to yielding the exponential growth of scientific medical advancement like the torture inflicted on the Jews in concentration camps. They used apalling methods to gain insights about substances and the human body that have saved millions of lives since, and given us knowledge we could never of gained from studying cadavers.


On a side note, I want to clarify: The Bible does not teach that infants or children are guilty of sin - with pure intentions it is impossible to sin. Sin is essentially rebellion to God, and one must have full mental capability to understand the consequences of their sin to be guilty of it. Note, this accounts for accidental sin as well; I child cannot fully grasp the consequences of his/her actions, but for us (as I don't think my audience here includes children) we can commit a sin unknowingly, but are not held responsible unless we see it and decide not to change. If you want more clarification on specifics then pm me.
Suffice to say, the Bible teaches that we must take responsibility for our actions, and it also clarifies the differences between sin, and consequences of sin.

(August 8, 2013 at 10:16 am)Locke Wrote: On a side note, I want to clarify: The Bible does not teach that infants or children are guilty of sin - with pure intentions it is impossible to sin. Sin is essentially rebellion to God, and one must have full mental capability to understand the consequences of their sin to be guilty of it. Note, this accounts for accidental sin as well; I child cannot fully grasp the consequences of his/her actions, but for us (as I don't think my audience here includes children) we can commit a sin unknowingly, but are not held responsible unless we see it and decide not to change. If you want more clarification on specifics then pm me.
Suffice to say, the Bible teaches that we must take responsibility for our actions, and it also clarifies the differences between sin, and consequences of sin.

I would like the verses that state this.

Based on this knowledge, if someone is raised with no knowledge of the concept of god or sin, they will not be held responsible for any "sins" they commit their entire life. Therefore must not suffer the consequences of sin and be sent to hell.

However, the bible teaches that you have to accept Jesus as your personal savior in order to go to heaven.

So we have a conundrum on our hands.

(August 8, 2013 at 10:16 am)Locke Wrote: On a side note, I want to clarify: The Bible does not teach that infants or children are guilty of sin - with pure intentions it is impossible to sin. Sin is essentially rebellion to God, and one must have full mental capability to understand the consequences of their sin to be guilty of it. Note, this accounts for accidental sin as well; I child cannot fully grasp the consequences of his/her actions, but for us (as I don't think my audience here includes children) we can commit a sin unknowingly, but are not held responsible unless we see it and decide not to change. If you want more clarification on specifics then pm me.
Suffice to say, the Bible teaches that we must take responsibility for our actions, and it also clarifies the differences between sin, and consequences of sin.

Doesn't this turn christianity into an evil thing, though? If sin committed unknowingly is forgiven by dint of not being overt rebellion, would not the kindest, objectively best thing a christian could do for the souls of all mankind be to dismantle the church, destroy every bible, and never speak a word about god again for the rest of their natural lives? It might not save those of us already tainted with the knowledge of god, but there would be generations after who would never grow up around crucifixes, and thus never learn about sin, making all their sins unknowing ones.

Also, what happens if an adult has a brain injury and develops amnesia, forgetting all about god? Are the sins he commits during that period okay?

(August 8, 2013 at 10:44 am)Rahul Wrote: Based on this knowledge, if someone is raised with no knowledge of the concept of god or sin, they will not be held responsible for any "sins" they commit their entire life. Therefore must not suffer the consequences of sin and be sent to hell.

This assumes that such concepts are fully learned, and not at all inborn. You need to support that position.

(August 8, 2013 at 10:52 am)John V Wrote: This assumes that such concepts are fully learned, and not at all inborn. You need to support that position.

And it is easily supported by the fact that any child not overtly told of your specific god or the concept of sin grows up to not believe in it. No doubt your response will be that denial of these things does not diminish the knowledge of them that all people have.

This, like your claim that all people are born knowing these things, are positive claims, and must actually be supported.

BTW, the case of people who haven't heard the law or gospel is covered in Romans 2. They don't get a free pass. They're judged according to their conscience and according to their judgment of others.

(August 8, 2013 at 10:57 am)John V Wrote: BTW, the case of people who haven't heard the law or gospel is covered in Romans 2. They don't get a free pass. They're judged according to their conscience and according to their judgment of others.

Could you expound on that? I'd kinda like to know your position here before I disagree with it too harshly.

(August 8, 2013 at 10:57 am)Esquilax Wrote: And it is easily supported by the fact that any child not overtly told of your specific god or the concept of sin grows up to [i]not believe in it.

Sin does not require a god concept. It is frequently associated with religion, but can refer to violation of any rule. Are you saying that children have no inborn sense of right and wrong? Seems to me that if you take a child's toy and break it, they'll likely feel that they were wronged.

(August 8, 2013 at 11:06 am)John V Wrote: Sin does not require a god concept. It is frequently associated with religion, but can refer to violation of any rule. Are you saying that children have no inborn sense of right and wrong? Seems to me that if you take a child's toy and break it, they'll likely feel that they were wronged.

So if we're good people we don't go to hell but go to heaven? Sweet.

(August 8, 2013 at 11:02 am)Esquilax Wrote: Could you expound on that? I'd kinda like to know your position here before I disagree with it too harshly.

Not sure what you're looking for.

Romans 2
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

Seems pretty clear. Lack of knowledge of the law is not an excuse if you judge other people and commit the same violations. The conscience part comes further on:

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

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(August 8, 2013 at 11:15 am)Rahul Wrote: So if we're good people we don't go to hell but go to heaven? Sweet.

Key word there is "if."