Quote:But none of those discoveries were made by theism. A more accurate sentence would be that one hundred percent of scientific discoveries were made by scientists, using the scientific method. It's a testament to the strength of the common element in all scientific discoveries, which is... you know, science.

Fair enough but the point was that God has nothing at all against science, he's down with it, he's cool.

Quote:And isn't it funny that the preachers and faithful, despite claiming inerrant wisdom from on high, never come to any of these discoveries from the pulpit? They all need to go and get degrees in the sciences first...

Gods relationship to his creatures isn't particularly a scientific kind of deal. It's a different subject not that the two subjects never overlap at all.

Quote:It's almost like religion has nothing to do with scientific progress at all...

Monotheism may well have been the driving force behind it as it proposed a rationally understandable natural order purpose made by God. And that is indeed what we have right here. Even Islam had a golden age of scientific progress that left the Christian world somewhat behind. The the situation now is a little reversed from that.

Quote:"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." - (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

That was advice for people being owned as slaves for the secular/pagan powers that be not an endorsement of slavery in general. It's clear that Christs message was very much against it. There's quite a lot written in there about how Christians were to live in pagan culture as the down trodden people they were. Later Christianity came to be the ruling power of course but it was never really the ideal religion of Earthly authority as Islam is. They only managed it by ignoring much of what Christ actually taught and focusing on various rituals, feast days and rights. But the foundation stone was always lurking beneath.

Quote:EDIT: Oh, by the way, I've got a quote from Jesus about how you should punish slaves, if that'd carry more weight with you.

Jesus was very much down with the downtrodden masses, the poor and the oppressed. He wasn't someone who supported the establishment, the rich or the elite. We have to be clear on his stance. Yes he spoke in parables to make certain hard to understand points.

(August 23, 2013 at 2:29 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

Quote:"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." - (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

That was advice for people being owned as slaves for the secular/pagan powers that be not an endorsement of slavery in general.

This response has me laughing. God giving advice? "Hey fellas, I know I am all powerful and shit, but maybe you can tote the asswhoopin' for the rest of your miserable lives? Thing is, your misery will make a great story for future generations. How 'bout it?"

No. This wasn't advice. 'Obey' is a commandment. A commandment that makes slaves stay slaves, and makes slaveholders contented in their usage. The god of the bible was a doucher, pure and simple.

Quote:This response has me laughing. God giving advice? "Hey fellas, I know I am all powerful and shit, but maybe you can tote the asswhoopin' for the rest of your miserable lives? Thing is, your misery will make a great story for future generations. How 'bout it?"

That wasn't God it was one of the early Church fathers. He was saying "Look you're a slave and that sucks but try to get on with your life as a good Christian whatever your position or status in life".

That can pretty well apply to economic slaves of the capitalist system today. Certainly slavery in the classical world was closer to that than the African slave trade of the 18th and 19th century.

Quote:No. This wasn't advice. 'Obey' is a commandment. A commandment that makes slaves stay slaves, and makes slaveholders contented in their usage. The god of the bible was a doucher, pure and simple.

Early Christians didn't have the power to overture slavery it was a fact of life, they would have wholesale had their asses fed to the lions if they tried. But the message of Jesus/God himself was not certainly pro-slavery. Perhaps not all Christians in history were fully aware of this or took any real notice of what he said but that's undeniable.

All I think is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

Fallacy alert.

(August 23, 2013 at 1:39 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: I do actually have some respect for atheism seeing as it is genuine interest in the truth no matter what it is and regardless of whether you like it or not, and it's committed to (Christian) morality for the sake of it...

I'm sorry, but I just vomited in my mouth a little. Your propensity to claim all accomplishments of humanity both pre and post-Christ era is not only astonishingly ignorant, it is egregiously arrogant. To do so, you have discarded and degraded the history of all of Eastern culture, all in the name of glorifying your god. You have also discarded the poisonous effect the Christian church has had on humanity, and then claimed all of the accomplishments that took place in spite of your church more than a thousand years after your Christ supposedly walked the Earth. Excuse me, I just puked in my mouth again.

Now, I don't know if you are being intentionally disingenuous, or if you are just completely ignorant on global history, but I must insist that you back up any claims that your religion was responsible for an accomplishment from a source that is not invested in your claim being true. Otherwise, please, stop with the ridiculous conjecture that your religion is responsible for everything.

(August 23, 2013 at 3:53 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

Quote:This response has me laughing. God giving advice? "Hey fellas, I know I am all powerful and shit, but maybe you can tote the asswhoopin' for the rest of your miserable lives? Thing is, your misery will make a great story for future generations. How 'bout it?"

That wasn't God it was one of the early Church fathers. He was saying "Look you're a slave and that sucks but try to get on with your life as a good Christian whatever your position or status in life".

That can pretty well apply to economic slaves of the capitalist system today. Certainly slavery in the classical world was closer to that than the African slave trade of the 18th and 19th century.

Quote:No. This wasn't advice. 'Obey' is a commandment. A commandment that makes slaves stay slaves, and makes slaveholders contented in their usage. The god of the bible was a doucher, pure and simple.

Early Christians didn't have the power to overture slavery it was a fact of life, they would have wholesale had their asses fed to the lions if they tried. But the message of Jesus/God himself was not certainly pro-slavery. Perhaps not all Christians in history were fully aware of this or took any real notice of what he said but that's undeniable.

Pardon my unscholarliness...the bible is better utilized as blunt wrappers around these parts. Even so, a 'church father' speaks for god, and that is how a slave would take it...'god wills it'. God doesn't get a free pass here.

Quote:I'm sorry, but I just vomited in my mouth a little. Your propensity to claim all accomplishments of humanity both pre and post-Christ era is not only astonishingly ignorant, it is egregiously arrogant.

The morality you have right now is derived fully from a Christian culture and society, and ultimately from Christ himself. You don't have the moral standards of an ancient pagan Greek, you don't have the moral standards a Norse Viking, a medieval Mongol, a Zoroastrian Persian no you have Christ woven into the fabric of your very bones even if you're rejecting the God that gives this morality any real defined substance beyond the collective opinion of human minds. This is what you were raised with, this is what in yeh. And whats "in yeh" is essentially good.

Quote:To do so, you have discarded and degraded the history of all of Eastern culture, all in the name of glorifying your god.

Other religions are mans various attempts at reaching out to God so they contain good moral teachings as well. Though they tend not to have everything Christ taught. For instance in Hinduism there is a caste system, not everyone is equal. Buddhism is a decent religion but the problem it has much like Gnosticism, is that it sees the world as a prison of suffering that must be escaped from. In Christianity life even in all it's harshness is something that through Christ is something to delight in, it is a gift from God, the creation is good. There was a problem with sin but Jesus restores it to fullness. You can respect other beliefs without having to regard them as all equally valid to your own. If they were all equally true then none of them would be true. They would just collide together and annihilate each other like particles of matter and anti-matter.

Quote:You have also discarded the poisonous effect the Christian church has had on humanity, and then claimed all of the accomplishments that took place in spite of your church more than a thousand years after your Christ supposedly walked the Earth. Excuse me, I just puked in my mouth again.

The organised church? Human institutions based on Christianity set up for worldly power? Yes certainly I agree. But Christ transcends all that, he is what defines us as a people. Our culture is a Christian one, our values are Christian values. This isn't something you can nor should attempt to scrub away. There are other religions, there are other moral value systems and standards in the world, and we have ours. We shouldn't be assumed to say that our values are the best values, we have done the most good in the world.

Quote:Now, I don't know if you are being intentionally disingenuous, or if you are just completely ignorant on global history, but I must insist that you back up any claims that your religion was responsible for an accomplishment from a source that is not invested in your claim being true. Otherwise, please, stop with the ridiculous conjecture that your religion is responsible for everything.

No not religion, Christ and God. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. This isn't some kind of silly superstition we are all part of the body of Christ, even if you're trying to rebel against it. You're not really fully rejecting it though as your humanist values are Christian values.

(August 23, 2013 at 3:53 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: That wasn't God it was one of the early Church fathers.

Anything any religion has ever done, everything any god has ever done... was done by people.
And people have agendas, biases, faults... which render your faith in what those people have written a bit of inadvisable... And yet, you do accept it...
I think it's odd how people can be so far removed from the (claimed) original god-human interaction and still accept it based on what people have been telling each other, sequentially, or aided by (faulty) writings by people and for people... and yet, accept it all.... just because it feels good.

How's your faith in Atlantis?

(August 23, 2013 at 4:30 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: The morality you have right now is derived fully from a Christian culture and society, and ultimately from Christ himself.

No matter how many times you repeat the erroneous statement, it does not become true simply by verbatim.

Quote:No matter how many times you repeat the erroneous statement, it does not become true simply by verbatim.

You didn't get your morality, you didn't get your culture from science, I'm sorry about this.