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(October 9, 2013 at 11:27 am)sarcasticgeographer Wrote:
(October 9, 2013 at 10:11 am)festive1 Wrote: The flag means less to me than the ideals it represents. Being that America purports to hold those ideals, yet reality is something quite different, it's very hypocritical. In addition, the people who seem hellbent on holding the country back from becoming everything the symbol stands for, wrap themselves in a blanket of patriotism and, literally, the flag. It's sick how people use patriotism. It's dangerous. I'm not fussed about the flag, they can keep it. I just want the execution of the ideals, which are hard to find here, because they've been bought and sold. They are separate things, ideals and symbols. They are not interchangeable. One has far more actual value and weight than the other. We can make the flag a giant pile of poo on a white background... whatever, I'm good, so long as America actually IS what it pretends to be, which we're not. America is a big, stupid bully, both on the international stage and to it's own citizens. I'm sick of it, and frustrated there's not a whole hell of a lot I can do about it.
It is absolutely disgusting that you spit on a flag that has been the symbol of freedom. Why do you think so many people want to come live here? The way you treat our flag is an abomination and you SHOULD move to whatever country you prefer and get over yourself. People have fought and died for the flag that you spit on. Remember Iwo Jima?
Talk to the millions of people in the American prison system for minor drug offences about freedom. Talk to the millions of hard working Americans who work 2 or 3 jobs to support their families to not even be able to pay the bills or provide their family with healthcare about equality. If anything, America doesn't deserve our flag or the right to claim the ideals it represents. It's a farce and a lie. We profess to uphold these ideals, yet when push comes to shove we shit all over our own citizens. Fuck that, and fuck those who claim America holds those values. If we actually held those values we wouldn't be in such sorry ass shape as a nation. Instead we'd put our money where our mouth is and actually fucking live those ideals.
Both grandfathers and one grandmother served in WWII. A handful of aunts and uncles served. I served 12 years. One brother and one cousin are still active. My take....
Flag burning in protest doesn't bother me in the slightest. Instead of becoming immediately horrified as many do I immediately wonder what the protest is for. I then agree or disagree based on the merits of the protest. Even if I disagree with the basis of the protest, I couldn't care less about the flag being burned.
While I'm at it, I'd like to make a proposal. Let's stop the insipid tradition of playing/singing the national anthem everytime a few people get together for a sporting event.
(October 9, 2013 at 10:11 am)festive1 Wrote: The flag means less to me than the ideals it represents. Being that America purports to hold those ideals, yet reality is something quite different, it's very hypocritical. In addition, the people who seem hellbent on holding the country back from becoming everything the symbol stands for, wrap themselves in a blanket of patriotism and, literally, the flag. It's sick how people use patriotism. It's dangerous. I'm not fussed about the flag, they can keep it. I just want the execution of the ideals, which are hard to find here, because they've been bought and sold. They are separate things, ideals and symbols. They are not interchangeable. One has far more actual value and weight than the other. We can make the flag a giant pile of poo on a white background... whatever, I'm good, so long as America actually IS what it pretends to be, which we're not. America is a big, stupid bully, both on the international stage and to it's own citizens. I'm sick of it, and frustrated there's not a whole hell of a lot I can do about it.
My self serving preference would be for you to stick around and help hold the line against the massive throng of stupid in this country. Can't blame you though if you prefer a different life. We're staying but then we're in a very blue state and I think you're in a red one. Can't blame you for being uncomfortable stuck behind enemy lines.
Maryland is Purple, trending Blue. It's the proximity to DC and crazy people the rest of the country sends here.
Just for clarification, I would love to go elsewhere. My husband would never leave. I'm not going to leave my husband or take our kids and move to a foreign country. I'm speaking in theory when I say I'm leaving. In reality, I'm staying... Slightly against my personal wishes, but there you have it. But I will bitch about it to no end.
Well, what are you supposed to do? True, true, in a country where loyalty is bought and sold with money, the lack of it appeals to your materialistic and pragmatic selves, so you actually feel inclined to yearn for places that actually appeal to your way of thinking.
Is there no shred of idealistic patriotism that actually has a place in your hearts and minds?
Idealistic patriotism, or in my case, nationalism is not about "receiving". We as idealists are drawn to hardships and misery. I too, am not fond of the current government in my country. However does this make me less loyal to my people and my country? No! Do I feel as though I should be ashamed? For my sense of loyalty, and my sense of pride and consciousness is built on an ideal of a nation and a country. I strive towards that goal, no matter in which state the current gov or society might be. You on the other hand, are quick to throw the towel. This is why I asked, if you're so eager to swap flags, why do you keep them?
A flag represents whatever it was created to represent. For example, the Hungarian revolution flag represented a resentment of communism, as the hammer and sickle in the middle of the flag was cut off. Our flag, for example, represents our nation's sovereignity. The red, represents the blood that we have spilled to preserve our sovereignity and freedom as an independent nation. The crescent and moon represent our national spirit as warriors of the faith. If the current government is actually behaving in a way to insult the values that our flag represents, does this mean that I have to hold the flag accountable for it? Does it mean that I have to punish the flag? No! I will raise the flag even higher to show my disapproval, for it represents the values I stand for, even if the government doesn't.
As for your flag, you have stated that it represents a variety of things. The thing is, that it represents them. And if you actually believe in things that it represents, it is only logical that you use your flag for it.
The fact that your country now is not the place what your flag represents, more for a reason to venerate and raise your flag, so that it returns to the values it represents. What good would the donning of the Canadian flag do for you? While you're at it, why not proclaim yourself a loyal subject of the crown?
Your way of thinking is faulty, my friend.
The flag means less to me than the ideals it represents. Being that America purports to hold those ideals, yet reality is something quite different, it's very hypocritical. In addition, the people who seem hellbent on holding the country back from becoming everything the symbol stands for, wrap themselves in a blanket of patriotism and, literally, the flag. It's sick how people use patriotism. It's dangerous. I'm not fussed about the flag, they can keep it. I just want the execution of the ideals, which are hard to find here, because they've been bought and sold. They are separate things, ideals and symbols. They are not interchangeable. One has far more actual value and weight than the other. We can make the flag a giant pile of poo on a white background... whatever, I'm good, so long as America actually IS what it pretends to be, which we're not. America is a big, stupid bully, both on the international stage and to it's own citizens. I'm sick of it, and frustrated there's not a whole hell of a lot I can do about it.
Quote:America is a big, stupid bully, both on the international stage and to it's own citizens. I'm sick of it,
In America you're still afforded the freedom to stay or leave. Nobody's twisting your arm and forcing you to live in this country. Why are you still here if you're that unhappy? Maybe China or some Islamic Arab country would be more to your liking.
"Inside every Liberal there's a Totalitarian screaming to get out"
Quote: JohnDG...
Quote:It was an awful mistake to characterize based upon religion. I should not judge any theist that way, I must remember what I said in order to change.
October 9, 2013 at 12:31 pm (This post was last modified: October 9, 2013 at 12:33 pm by kılıç_mehmet.)
(October 9, 2013 at 10:11 am)festive1 Wrote:
(October 9, 2013 at 7:53 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Well, what are you supposed to do? True, true, in a country where loyalty is bought and sold with money, the lack of it appeals to your materialistic and pragmatic selves, so you actually feel inclined to yearn for places that actually appeal to your way of thinking.
Is there no shred of idealistic patriotism that actually has a place in your hearts and minds?
Idealistic patriotism, or in my case, nationalism is not about "receiving". We as idealists are drawn to hardships and misery. I too, am not fond of the current government in my country. However does this make me less loyal to my people and my country? No! Do I feel as though I should be ashamed? For my sense of loyalty, and my sense of pride and consciousness is built on an ideal of a nation and a country. I strive towards that goal, no matter in which state the current gov or society might be. You on the other hand, are quick to throw the towel. This is why I asked, if you're so eager to swap flags, why do you keep them?
A flag represents whatever it was created to represent. For example, the Hungarian revolution flag represented a resentment of communism, as the hammer and sickle in the middle of the flag was cut off. Our flag, for example, represents our nation's sovereignity. The red, represents the blood that we have spilled to preserve our sovereignity and freedom as an independent nation. The crescent and moon represent our national spirit as warriors of the faith. If the current government is actually behaving in a way to insult the values that our flag represents, does this mean that I have to hold the flag accountable for it? Does it mean that I have to punish the flag? No! I will raise the flag even higher to show my disapproval, for it represents the values I stand for, even if the government doesn't.
As for your flag, you have stated that it represents a variety of things. The thing is, that it represents them. And if you actually believe in things that it represents, it is only logical that you use your flag for it.
The fact that your country now is not the place what your flag represents, more for a reason to venerate and raise your flag, so that it returns to the values it represents. What good would the donning of the Canadian flag do for you? While you're at it, why not proclaim yourself a loyal subject of the crown?
Your way of thinking is faulty, my friend.
The flag means less to me than the ideals it represents. Being that America purports to hold those ideals, yet reality is something quite different, it's very hypocritical. In addition, the people who seem hellbent on holding the country back from becoming everything the symbol stands for, wrap themselves in a blanket of patriotism and, literally, the flag. It's sick how people use patriotism. It's dangerous. I'm not fussed about the flag, they can keep it. I just want the execution of the ideals, which are hard to find here, because they've been bought and sold. They are separate things, ideals and symbols. They are not interchangeable. One has far more actual value and weight than the other. We can make the flag a giant pile of poo on a white background... whatever, I'm good, so long as America actually IS what it pretends to be, which we're not. America is a big, stupid bully, both on the international stage and to it's own citizens. I'm sick of it, and frustrated there's not a whole hell of a lot I can do about it.
Meaning, the country and its people also represent less to you. You can find these ideals in another country that you think that suits your ideals. Communists from all over the world have discarded their nationalities and ties in order to go and live in communist countries. Since you also seem to possess such "ideals" though I don't quite know what your ideology is, you can leave your country and go somewhere else(one wich executes your ideals to your satisfaction). Obviously you don't like the country and you don't think it serves your best interests to stay there.
If you had valued the flag, in addition to whatever values it had that corresponded to yours, you would, as I had said, raise it up high. Instead, as I said, you punish it, while you ought to be the one to exalt the flag to your standards.
As for patriotism, and how it is used. The people you've mentioned, are clearly a lot more patriotic than you. Patriotism means to stick to your country during its better or worse days. Patriotism is to devote your life to the future of your country. However, as you, from what I can gather, lack collective thinking, lack such a concept. You lack a national consciousness, and this is why you view flags as nothing more than a piece of cloth with patterns on them. Flags not only represent ideals, my good friend, they also represent an entire people. Only anarchists who do not believe in such concepts burn flags, desecrate national symbols, for they mean nothing to them. Similarly, governments, countries, nothing matters for them. So since you are so eager to discard your national symbols, that represent your nation and your sovereignity, like your flag, why really come and complain to me about how bad everything is around here? In my opinion, only patriotic people are allowed to complain about things. Not those who speak and act as anarchists, as anarchists are already opposed to the existence of governments, countries and nations, so whether good or bad, would it make a difference?
Quote:Fuck the flag. It's a goddamn flag. If people are dying for a flag then they're idiots. If they're dying for what it represents, that at least means something.
If the country I live in is being fucking stupid, I'm not going to respect its symbols JUST BECAUSE I live in this country and others care enough to get themselves killed over it.
He's acting all edgy and anarchist. As you said, if you hate your country, and don't respect its symbols, why really do you expect it to fit your standards? Obviously you're not the one to determine what is stupid or not. You don't even like the country, nor respect the symbols that represent the country and its people.
And you even speak ill of your war dead, since the country is stupid, those who die for it, also ought to be stupid.
Once I had said that no loyalty could be expected from leftists and liberals. And as it turns out, they are ready to insult the country, its people, its symbols, and those who have given their life for it whenever something does not suit them, perhaps even betray it for the right price.
(October 9, 2013 at 12:23 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: How would one move out of a country without the resources to do so?
Oh man. You hate the country, but you can't leave it either. You sure do complain a lot. "I hate America and I want to leave but the country I hate does not give me money so I can leave it!".
October 9, 2013 at 12:34 pm (This post was last modified: October 9, 2013 at 12:34 pm by Psykhronic.)
(October 9, 2013 at 12:31 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:
Quote:Fuck the flag. It's a goddamn flag. If people are dying for a flag then they're idiots. If they're dying for what it represents, that at least means something.
If the country I live in is being fucking stupid, I'm not going to respect its symbols JUST BECAUSE I live in this country and others care enough to get themselves killed over it.
He's acting all edgy and anarchist. As you said, if you hate your country, and don't respect its symbols, why really do you expect it to fit your standards? Obviously you're not the one to determine what is stupid or not. You don't even like the country, nor respect the symbols that represent the country and its people.
And you even speak ill of your war dead, since the country is stupid, those who die for it, also ought to be stupid.
Once I had said that no loyalty could be expected from leftists and liberals. And as it turns out, they are ready to insult the country, its people, its symbols, and those who have given their life for it whenever something does not suit them, perhaps even betray it for the right price.
Yeah keep connecting imaginary dots.
And I already said, I want to stay here. But it is not simple for those who wish to leave was my point.
October 9, 2013 at 12:37 pm (This post was last modified: October 9, 2013 at 12:41 pm by kılıç_mehmet.)
(October 9, 2013 at 12:21 pm)cato123 Wrote: Both grandfathers and one grandmother served in WWII. A handful of aunts and uncles served. I served 12 years. One brother and one cousin are still active. My take....
Flag burning in protest doesn't bother me in the slightest. Instead of becoming immediately horrified as many do I immediately wonder what the protest is for. I then agree or disagree based on the merits of the protest. Even if I disagree with the basis of the protest, I couldn't care less about the flag being burned.
While I'm at it, I'd like to make a proposal. Let's stop the insipid tradition of playing/singing the national anthem everytime a few people get together for a sporting event.
And if the protest merits your agreement, you immidately okay with a person that insults you by insulting your flag, which in turn represents your country and nation?
The flag of my country is burned by a lot of people too. And I know why they burn it. They do it to insult my nation, they hate us, and since they cannot bring down our state, they burn our flag to have some fun with the flag pole later. I never came across a bunch of people trying to burn my flag, but if I do, I will first warn them to hand over the flag, and if not, I will take action. This is my duty as a member of the nation that the flag stands for.
(October 9, 2013 at 12:34 pm)Psykhronic Wrote:
(October 9, 2013 at 12:31 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: He's acting all edgy and anarchist. As you said, if you hate your country, and don't respect its symbols, why really do you expect it to fit your standards? Obviously you're not the one to determine what is stupid or not. You don't even like the country, nor respect the symbols that represent the country and its people.
And you even speak ill of your war dead, since the country is stupid, those who die for it, also ought to be stupid.
Once I had said that no loyalty could be expected from leftists and liberals. And as it turns out, they are ready to insult the country, its people, its symbols, and those who have given their life for it whenever something does not suit them, perhaps even betray it for the right price.
Yeah keep connecting imaginary dots.
And I already said, I want to stay here. But it is not simple for those who wish to leave was my point.
Well, I'm not connecting imaginary dots, you yourself have made those connections in your post. For those who want to leave...Well, why really leave? Where to? Where do you expect to get a better life? And why do you think that they would welcome a penniless American anywhere on earth?
Personally I think you should be grateful. People go through numerous hardships just to come to your country. Instead I see here a lot of people complaining about things. And by complaining, they do not even claim to love or care about the country and its people so as to really complain.
And I already said, I want to stay here. But it is not simple for those who wish to leave was my point.
Well, I'm not connecting imaginary dots, you yourself have made those connections in your post. For those who want to leave...Well, why really leave? Where to? Where do you expect to get a better life? And why do you think that they would welcome a penniless American anywhere on earth?
Personally I think you should be grateful. People go through numerous hardships just to come to your country. Instead I see here a lot of people complaining about things. And by complaining, they do not even claim to love or care about the country and its people so as to really complain.
I did not say they would welcome penniless americans - in fact, i already said without money its pretty much impossible to emigrate. Some people wish to go to Canada, Nordic Countries, or Europe. And just because people think life is gonna be GRAND in america means nothing to me. And I doubt other countries are flawless. But I am never living in another country.
And really? Be grateful? Son, I am HAPPY ALL THE TIME to not live in your country, and I am very grateful not to live in a complete fucking atrocious wasteland, but that does not mean America is free from criticism.
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