(December 6, 2008 at 6:00 pm)LukeMC Wrote: This may or may not work.

Imagine we are all oblivious to the concept of "gods". We don't know what a "god" is, we've never seen the word "god" in our entire lives. We are discussing origins of the universe. We've narrowed it down to singularity, but don't know where to go next.

We turn to our friend Psalm 23, our friend CoxRox, and our friend DayStar, and we ask "what do you think happened?"

The idea behind this is that one of those three I just named will mention a god. Like us, they have no idea what a god is, therefore they must formulate this god logically and with reasons for each attribute from scratch. They must tell us what this thing "is" and why it is a logical idea. They must tell us its attributes, origins, and anything else they can, so that we can have a fresh debate.

This gives theists a chance to critically think about their god, and us atheists/agnostics to ask fundemental questions on every point about this god.

So remember, theists: you have no previous knowledge of what a "god" is. You are wondering about origin of the universe and you try to formulate a possibility for the rest of us to consider. As you have no previous knowledge of any "gods", you must construct your "god" from your own sense of logic. Everything about it.

Atheists: you also haven't heard of a "god". The idea is new to you, and as each point is illustrated, you question these points to see how they hold out, almost in a child-like manner. Because who knows, they might even make sense.

I think this will be most beneficial to CoxRox, and perhaps interesting for the rest of us. If it fails, it fails.

Sorry to be negatoid, nice try, but if you think Daystar, Cox Rox and Psalmy are going to give you a straight answer to your premise...forget it. It fails.

I'm satisfied with those answers, now I just have to question this part

(December 6, 2008 at 7:48 pm)CoxRox Wrote: It is both force, energy, matter (its incorruptible matter). It sends out energy to form 'big bangs' that give birth to our type of energy and our 'reality'. I don't understand it myself. I'm speculating remember.

Why does it do this? What makes this force want to go around creating universes? If it always has been (infinite universes/times/etc) then it doesn't have any choice right? So it just kinda happens? With no purpose. Then is this "big-bang-creating" matter conscious at all? Its conscious would be useless, as it wouldn't be able to make any decision, as it has always been, always done, always the same, since ever. If you accept this idea, then is this really a benevolent, powerful, intelligent creator? Or just another type of matter, completel natural like all other matters, but unique in its properties?

(December 6, 2008 at 7:57 pm)LukeMC Wrote: I'm satisfied with those answers, now I just have to question this part

(December 6, 2008 at 7:48 pm)CoxRox Wrote: It is both force, energy, matter (its incorruptible matter). It sends out energy to form 'big bangs' that give birth to our type of energy and our 'reality'. I don't understand it myself. I'm speculating remember.

Why does it do this? What makes this force want to go around creating universes? If it always has been (infinite universes/times/etc) then it doesn't have any choice right? So it just kinda happens? With no purpose. Then is this "big-bang-creating" matter conscious at all? Its conscious would be useless, as it wouldn't be able to make any decision, as it has always been, always done, always the same, since ever. If you accept this idea, then is this really a benevolent, powerful, intelligent creator? Or just another type of matter, completel natural like all other matters, but unique in its properties?

I don't know why it creates universes. It's happening regardless of why and I don't think it's without purpose. We humans are full of purpose. The laws of the universe seem to have 'purpose'. Being or matter, or force or all? I don't know......

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Bozo, why do you bother?

(December 6, 2008 at 8:04 pm)CoxRox Wrote:

(December 6, 2008 at 7:57 pm)LukeMC Wrote: I'm satisfied with those answers, now I just have to question this part

(December 6, 2008 at 7:48 pm)CoxRox Wrote: It is both force, energy, matter (its incorruptible matter). It sends out energy to form 'big bangs' that give birth to our type of energy and our 'reality'. I don't understand it myself. I'm speculating remember.

Why does it do this? What makes this force want to go around creating universes? If it always has been (infinite universes/times/etc) then it doesn't have any choice right? So it just kinda happens? With no purpose. Then is this "big-bang-creating" matter conscious at all? Its conscious would be useless, as it wouldn't be able to make any decision, as it has always been, always done, always the same, since ever. If you accept this idea, then is this really a benevolent, powerful, intelligent creator? Or just another type of matter, completel natural like all other matters, but unique in its properties?

I don't know why it creates universes. It's happening regardless of why and I don't think it's without purpose. We humans are full of purpose. The laws of the universe seem to have 'purpose'. Being or matter, or force or all? I don't know......

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Bozo, why do you bother?

CR, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

Ask Luke if I've not been giving him 'straight answers'. They may be a load of crap at the end of the day, but we've been having a good go at trying to describe how a god could be. Your negativity is unwarranted I think.

(December 6, 2008 at 8:04 pm)CoxRox Wrote:

(December 6, 2008 at 7:57 pm)LukeMC Wrote: I'm satisfied with those answers, now I just have to question this part

(December 6, 2008 at 7:48 pm)CoxRox Wrote: It is both force, energy, matter (its incorruptible matter). It sends out energy to form 'big bangs' that give birth to our type of energy and our 'reality'. I don't understand it myself. I'm speculating remember.

Why does it do this? What makes this force want to go around creating universes? If it always has been (infinite universes/times/etc) then it doesn't have any choice right? So it just kinda happens? With no purpose. Then is this "big-bang-creating" matter conscious at all? Its conscious would be useless, as it wouldn't be able to make any decision, as it has always been, always done, always the same, since ever. If you accept this idea, then is this really a benevolent, powerful, intelligent creator? Or just another type of matter, completel natural like all other matters, but unique in its properties?

I don't know why it creates universes. It's happening regardless of why and I don't think it's without purpose. We humans are full of purpose. The laws of the universe seem to have 'purpose'. Being or matter, or force or all? I don't know......

---

Bozo, why do you bother?

What purpose do we humans have other than the purposes which we set for ourselves?
The laws of the universe may "seem to have purpose" in the same way that the sun "seemed to be orbitting the earth". The question then being "well what would it look like if it were the earth orbitting the sun?". The answer being the same.

The two suppositions that there is purpose in us and the laws of the universe is very shakey. It would require that the creator gave these purposes. Does this creator give an individual purpose to every human being? Does it therefore have a plan for us? Does it care about us? And in giving us a "purpose", are we expected to fulfill it, or are we destined to? And with us having purpose, this would explain the benevolence of the force (I sound so jedi), or does it? What purpose do muslim extremists pose? Is their purpose part of a grander plan, such as increasing our awareness and forcing us to end religion? (as an example) And therefore are these lives basically a sacrifice? What purpose do our wars have? Is the force really benevolent if it have given us all a purpose and these purposes have led to so much pain and suffering?

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(December 6, 2008 at 7:57 pm)bozo Wrote: Sorry to be negatoid, nice try, but if you think Daystar, Cox Rox and Psalmy are going to give you a straight answer to your premise...forget it. It fails.

I agree with you. But only for Daystar. Psalm 23 I'm not sure about, and as for CoxRox... it's going well

The purpose of this thread is mainly for people like CoxRox. those who are unsure, but willing to try find out. I can't imagine her "religious views" remaining "christian agnostic" for much longer.

(December 6, 2008 at 8:09 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Ask Luke if I've not been giving him 'straight answers'. They may be a load of crap at the end of the day, but we've been having a good go at trying to describe how a god could be. Your negativity is unwarranted I think.

CR, I have often been accused of being negative in my opinions...invariably because I hold a line, answer directly, and keep to the point.

Luke you said: ''What purpose do we humans have other than the purposes which we set for ourselves?
The laws of the universe may "seem to have purpose" in the same way that the sun "seemed to be orbitting the earth". The question then being "well what would it look like if it were the earth orbitting the sun?". The answer being the same.

The two suppositions that there is purpose in us and the laws of the universe is very shakey. It would require that the creator gave these purposes. Does this creator give an individual purpose to every human being? Does it therefore have a plan for us? Does it care about us? And in giving us a "purpose", are we expected to fulfill it, or are we destined to? And with us having purpose, this would explain the benevolence of the force (I sound so jedi), or does it?'

Maybe purpose is like the laws. The laws are fixed, they have to be a certain way. Life which is dependant on these laws, gives rise to purpose, they are mutally exclusive??


''What purpose do muslim extremists pose? Is their purpose part of a grander plan, such as increasing our awareness and forcing us to end religion? (as an example) And therefore are these lives basically a sacrifice? What purpose do our wars have? Is the force really benevolent if it have given us all a purpose and these purposes have led to so much pain and suffering?''

Pain, suffering, people having different ideas about purposes or what they should do... This being or force 'includes' pain and suffering and choice for us (limited though it probably is). They must therefore be necessary ingredients, just as the law of gravity is necessary for existence. Stands to reason...

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(December 6, 2008 at 8:18 pm)bozo Wrote:

(December 6, 2008 at 8:09 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Ask Luke if I've not been giving him 'straight answers'. They may be a load of crap at the end of the day, but we've been having a good go at trying to describe how a god could be. Your negativity is unwarranted I think.

CR, I have often been accused of being negative in my opinions...invariably because I hold a line, answer directly, and keep to the point.

I disagree with your interpretation of our discussion. I got the impression you hadn't read the whole post, just the first one by Luke. If you had read it all and still made that assumption, then I'm very surprised at your conclusion and as Katherine Tate's old granny character would say: 'what a fackin liberty'....

(December 6, 2008 at 8:19 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Luke you said: ''What purpose do we humans have other than the purposes which we set for ourselves?
The laws of the universe may "seem to have purpose" in the same way that the sun "seemed to be orbitting the earth". The question then being "well what would it look like if it were the earth orbitting the sun?". The answer being the same.

The two suppositions that there is purpose in us and the laws of the universe is very shakey. It would require that the creator gave these purposes. Does this creator give an individual purpose to every human being? Does it therefore have a plan for us? Does it care about us? And in giving us a "purpose", are we expected to fulfill it, or are we destined to? And with us having purpose, this would explain the benevolence of the force (I sound so jedi), or does it?'

Maybe purpose is like the laws. The laws are fixed, they have to be a certain way. Life which is dependant on these laws, gives rise to purpose, they are mutally exclusive??


''What purpose do muslim extremists pose? Is their purpose part of a grander plan, such as increasing our awareness and forcing us to end religion? (as an example) And therefore are these lives basically a sacrifice? What purpose do our wars have? Is the force really benevolent if it have given us all a purpose and these purposes have led to so much pain and suffering?''

Pain, suffering, people having different ideas about purposes or what they should do... This being or force 'includes' pain and suffering and choice for us (limited though it probably is). They must therefore be necessary ingredients, just as the law of gravity is necessary for existence. Stands to reason...

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(December 6, 2008 at 8:18 pm)bozo Wrote:

(December 6, 2008 at 8:09 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Ask Luke if I've not been giving him 'straight answers'. They may be a load of crap at the end of the day, but we've been having a good go at trying to describe how a god could be. Your negativity is unwarranted I think.

CR, I have often been accused of being negative in my opinions...invariably because I hold a line, answer directly, and keep to the point.

I disagree with your interpretation of our discussion. I got the impression you hadn't read the whole post, just the first one by Luke. If you had read it all and still made that assumption, then I'm very surprised at your conclusion and as Katherine Tate's old granny character would say: 'what a fackin liberty'....

CR, I am unfamiliar with Katherine Tate's old granny so your comment is meaningless and a bit of a time waster....like much of your threads.

(December 6, 2008 at 8:19 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Maybe purpose is like the laws. The laws are fixed, they have to be a certain way. Life which is dependant on these laws, gives rise to purpose, they are mutally exclusive??

Okay, life gives these laws a purpose (upholding life), but what purpose does life have? Thes laws don't add anything to the purpose of a human, they just make it possible for a human to survive. Where is the purpose coming from for us?

Quote:Pain, suffering, people having different ideas about purposes or what they should do... This being or force 'includes' pain and suffering and choice for us (limited though it probably is). They must therefore be necessary ingredients, just as the law of gravity is necessary for existence. Stands to reason...

I'm retracting my statement. I have a new road to go down... Pain is a result of nerve stimulus and such things, not the direct interaction of some being. So lets leave that aside. Instead, I ask why people are given the choice to do wrong? If there is no afterlife, then there is no reward for the good, no punishment for the bad. The bad people ruin the lives of the good people and get away with it. Does this benevolent force find it acceptable that it has created people who are only going to be put through pain by other people? Why didn't it instead create the universe in a way that we would evolve altruistic characteristics long before we were capable of harnassing evil? This way, it would have created a lovely place where people help oneanother instead of killing an dhurting. The benevolence of this force is now in question, as it is behaving rather unbenevolently. Unless it rewards the good people? Does it? If not, can you still call it benevolent?

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(December 6, 2008 at 8:32 pm)bozo Wrote: CR, I am unfamiliar with Katherine Tate's old granny so your comment is meaningless and a bit of a time waster....like much of your threads.

Bozo, behave!
Or at least take the bickering elsewhere, as neither of you are contributing anything to this thread by arguing like this.