This is aimed at ex-Christians really. I've never been religious so have no idea what it is like.

I guess it is a constant struggle to belief in something for which there is no physical evidence. I guess this goes into the field of Cognitive Dissonance, something I know very little about. I imagine it to be a bit like "Doublethink" in 1984.

So what was it like? Were you constantly having doubts, or could you play mental gymnastics and ignore these for large periods of time? Or just assume it was true and not really think properly about it?

Yes. It's takes effort.

When I was little I believed in Santa and whoever told me Santa was fake I would get mad because his idea jeopardized my endless gifts and presents. Questioning the existence of Santa was not in my best of interests. So when i realized my parents were giving me those gifts, I stopped believing in Santa.

When you tell a man of faith that "there is no God", he gets mad because he misinterprets what you said for "there is no pleasure in faith", so he gets mad for 2 reasons, because he does find faith to be pleasurable and because the idea jeopardizes his pleasure. A bit like a teenage girl gets mad on her dad when he tells her "there is no boyfriend", since her boyfriend went inside her and brought her pleasure, her whole being repels the idea.

When I say there is no God, I don't mean there is no pleasure in believing in God. It's like the pleasure of believing in Santa.

Fun question. I used to be a YEC. My parents did everything they could to "Keep me away from temptation" and at one point even sent me to a private Christian school. When you're absolutely surrounded by the stuff at a young age, it's pretty easy to believe what your parents and the religious peeps around you tend to say since you really don't know otherwise. I suppose that's the "Get'em while they're young" part...

The real challenge came in my high school days when I was a really outspoken (and probably super annoying) Christian in high school. I definitely didn't get along with others well and did not understand the resentment towards my beliefs from some of my peers. It was a pretty religious town, but it definitely didn't seem like it was quite all that accepted to be open about that stuff in school unless it was among kids of the same church, etc.

What really became hard for me with time was my interest in Science and Science-Fiction novels. I started enjoying that stuff and loved space and the universe. One time I took out Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" and read it... but of course, when we got to parts of it like the big bang, I was told to stop reading it. If I asked about it, it was obviously something that, "he just didn't get right" even though "it's neat you like talking about space and black holes, son."

I never really got into debates in high school except for once. That one conversation I recall really messing with my brain. We were arguing in the library about the big bang. I said, "There couldn't be one, god made the universe." and then he tossed me a little mental ninja... "Well, what if there was a big bang and what if god is the one who did it? Did you ever think about that?" and I had no response and even recall thinking, "hey that's... a really good point."

So time went on, I moved out on my own, many years passed. I stopped going to church. I went church to church and during this time when I met my wife and was really "struggling with my faith" so to speak. I was getting more into learning about science and technology, was in college for a short period of time and had a hell of a time reconciling my personal beliefs with things which seemed to make sense. So there was this constant, "Well, this makes sense... but I think this is true... how can this be true but this make sense... they can't both be true... so which is true?" and that's when I started going to churches and asking pastors after church and picking brains. None of their answers really worked for me.

One day me and my wife were trying pretty much the last church in our area and just couldn't dig it and I said, "I just can't find one that I agree with." and that's sort of when it hit me, "Why in the hell am I searching for things that I agree with. I think I need to really read my bible and figure this stuff out." and I started looking at arguments for god, arguments against god, reading it over and over. Slowly but surely I got to the point where I really couldn't reconcile them anymore and I just dropped my beliefs and "Started over" so to speak. In doing so I decided to try and give a damn about what was true instead of what sounded good.

One very difficult part of that was just coming to terms with the fact that I realized I was an atheist. It wasn't an overnight thing. I was terrified of it because I hadn't told my wife. I hadn't told my family. One day I came out to my wife and just sat down and told her. To my amazement she was totally cool with it and said, "Well I had religion forced down my throat my whole life so I really don't give a shit about it anyway. I love you either way, so it's fine." My family on the other hand hasn't quite taken it so well. They've slowly backed off little by little, but only after I send them long rebuttals to the books they send me and when they can't back up their own arguments (safe to say.. they haven't sent me a book in quite a while).

So is it difficult to maintain it? Well, that depends. I think if you're completely surrounded by those people and do everything you can to isolate yourself, well, not really. In fact, what most people would refer to as "Isolation" I think a lot of them might consider "Staying away from temptation!" but of course... what do MOST cults do when they don't want outside influence to disturb their teachings of their followers? Isolate them from the outside world. If that doesn't work, threaten them with social rejection. I hear eternal punishment in a fiery lake works too.

The hardest things for me to reconcile were:

- Age of the universe. Distance of stars and light and the light year equation. I loved astronomy, even as a YEC, but tried to explain it all away. Of course, "god just put it there" vs "light travels at x per year. if galaxy is y years away, how long does it take the light to reach us?"
- Why the big bang would have to necessarily be explained away, couldn't a god do that or be responsible? How do you prove or disprove that?
- If a god is so powerful and gave us free will, but is all powerful and all knowing, then doesn't he know what people are going to choose to do? if he knows what they will choose to do, then is that really free will? does that mean he just sends a bunch of people to hell and knows it ahead of time? if he does that, is he really all powerful? wouldn't that make him an asshole?
- Why exactly would an entire army be defeated by chariots of iron if a god is all powerful and aiding them?
- Why did people have to have meetings in ancient times as the bible was made about what chapters to keep and which ones to toss? if it were a book guided by a supreme being, would they really need to have a big peer review on it?
- Why would a book that is supposed to be the message of the surpreme ruler of the universe initially be written in ONE language if it's really supposed to be clear for everyone? If it was really intended for all of mankind, why the hell in a language that so many people get wrong, misunderstand or don't know the original meanings of the texts in relation to the translations of today?
- Why was slavery ok then, but not ok now? Did god really impose that or did people? If people imposed it in a book, then does that mean god knew they imposed it? Why would he not intervene? If god imposed it, then is it wrong? I mean... we know it's wrong, so that's messed up. Does that mean he didn't care? Or does that mean the bible is wrong... that pretty much leaves us with I'm wrong, he's wrong or the book is wrong... Someone is wrong.

Anyway... miscellaneous pondering from my previous BS reality.

(December 22, 2013 at 6:29 pm)Ksa Wrote: When I was little I believed in Santa and whoever told me Santa was fake I would get mad because his idea jeopardized my endless gifts and presents. Questioning the existence of Santa was not in my best of interests. So when i realized my parents were giving me those gifts, I stopped believing in Santa.

When you tell a man of faith that "there is no God", he gets mad because he misinterprets what you said for "there is no pleasure in faith", so he gets mad for 2 reasons, because he does find faith to be pleasurable and because the idea jeopardizes his pleasure. A bit like a teenage girl gets mad on her dad when he tells her "there is no boyfriend", since her boyfriend went inside her and brought her pleasure, her whole being repels the idea.

When I say there is no God, I don't mean there is no pleasure in believing in a God. It's like the pleasure of believing in Santa.

No because... Because...

Oh shut up!

(that's worth a rep point. Very insightful.)

Well, what Ksa said has me more confused than anything. I don't pretend to be privy to the deep truths about my god. I just try to be good and virtuous, and faithful to my god. Sometimes I get weird thoughts that maybe, without knowing it, I've disappointed her. But other than that, I have few doubts. It is not a struggle for me to believe. It is as simple as water to me. Of course, I'm also crazy, and have some deep theories about existence which take the typical "how do I reconcile this" type doubts away. I don't waste my time in self-doubt. Perhaps that's part of it. I'm very blessed by the goddess, and am very confident in myself as a result. Sometimes over-confident, but usually not. That confidence in myself probably extends to a confidence in my views about the world and transcendent reality.

(December 22, 2013 at 6:31 pm)Logisch Wrote: One very difficult part of that was just coming to terms with the fact that I realized I was an atheist. It wasn't an overnight thing. I was terrified of it because I hadn't told my wife. I hadn't told my family. One day I came out to my wife and just sat down and told her. To my amazement she was totally cool with it and said, "Well I had religion forced down my throat my whole life so I really don't give a shit about it anyway. I love you either way, so it's fine." My family on the other hand hasn't quite taken it so well. They've slowly backed off little by little, but only after I send them long rebuttals to the books they send me and when they can't back up their own arguments (safe to say.. they haven't sent me a book in quite a while).

So is it difficult to maintain it? Well, that depends. I think if you're completely surrounded by those people and do everything you can to isolate yourself, well, not really. In fact, what most people would refer to as "Isolation" I think a lot of them might consider "Staying away from temptation!" but of course... what do MOST cults do when they don't want outside influence to disturb their teachings of their followers? Isolate them from the outside world. If that doesn't work, threaten them with social rejection. I hear eternal punishment in a fiery lake works too.

I do wonder how people over here in the UK keep it going*, especially as they will almost all have friends and/or partners who are Atheists. It ends up with them believing things like "my partner is a good person, so will go to heaven" and "just be nice to people" etc etc.

*Most don't, I think the latest figures say 2/3rd of 16-24 yr olds don't believe in God. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...n-God.html

(December 23, 2013 at 10:09 am)FreeTony Wrote:

(December 22, 2013 at 6:31 pm)Logisch Wrote: One very difficult part of that was just coming to terms with the fact that I realized I was an atheist. It wasn't an overnight thing. I was terrified of it because I hadn't told my wife. I hadn't told my family. One day I came out to my wife and just sat down and told her. To my amazement she was totally cool with it and said, "Well I had religion forced down my throat my whole life so I really don't give a shit about it anyway. I love you either way, so it's fine." My family on the other hand hasn't quite taken it so well. They've slowly backed off little by little, but only after I send them long rebuttals to the books they send me and when they can't back up their own arguments (safe to say.. they haven't sent me a book in quite a while).

So is it difficult to maintain it? Well, that depends. I think if you're completely surrounded by those people and do everything you can to isolate yourself, well, not really. In fact, what most people would refer to as "Isolation" I think a lot of them might consider "Staying away from temptation!" but of course... what do MOST cults do when they don't want outside influence to disturb their teachings of their followers? Isolate them from the outside world. If that doesn't work, threaten them with social rejection. I hear eternal punishment in a fiery lake works too.

I do wonder how people over here in the UK keep it going*, especially as they will almost all have friends and/or partners who are Atheists. It ends up with them believing things like "my partner is a good person, so will go to heaven" and "just be nice to people" etc etc.

*Most don't, I think the latest figures say 2/3rd of 16-24 yr olds don't believe in God. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...n-God.html

It definitely does seem like each generation is one step closer and less worried about belief. I'm OK with that

(December 22, 2013 at 6:03 pm)FreeTony Wrote: This is aimed at ex-Christians really. I've never been religious so have no idea what it is like.

I guess it is a constant struggle to belief in something for which there is no physical evidence. I guess this goes into the field of Cognitive Dissonance, something I know very little about. I imagine it to be a bit like "Doublethink" in 1984.

So what was it like? Were you constantly having doubts, or could you play mental gymnastics and ignore these for large periods of time? Or just assume it was true and not really think properly about it?

I found it harder to follow my faith when things are too good/easy. Even so i never doubt that thier is a God. why? Because when we Ask/Seek/knock for the Holy Spirit, The Spirit literally lives with in you. It is hard to doubt God when you have to deal with Him daily.

(December 23, 2013 at 11:11 am)Drich Wrote:

(December 22, 2013 at 6:03 pm)FreeTony Wrote: This is aimed at ex-Christians really. I've never been religious so have no idea what it is like.

I guess it is a constant struggle to belief in something for which there is no physical evidence. I guess this goes into the field of Cognitive Dissonance, something I know very little about. I imagine it to be a bit like "Doublethink" in 1984.

So what was it like? Were you constantly having doubts, or could you play mental gymnastics and ignore these for large periods of time? Or just assume it was true and not really think properly about it?

I found it harder to follow my faith when things are too good/easy. Even so i never doubt that thier is a God. why? Because when we Ask/Seek/knock for the Holy Spirit, The Spirit literally lives with in you. It is hard to doubt God when you have to deal with Him daily.

Yet another contradiction


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