(January 19, 2014 at 4:17 pm)LastPoet Wrote: The same can be said to your arguments for veganism. All you presented is: "I'm lilly-livered and everyone else must conform to my sensibilities"

ETA: shit, got ninja'd by KUSA.

Lilly livered, hey? Probably need more protein in the diet. I'd suggest more servings of meat each day.

(January 19, 2014 at 10:40 am)jg2014 Wrote: Hi Aractus,

I very much disagree with this. Firstly two general points, then allergies, then I will address the specific nutritens you are concerned about.

Firstly, if veganism was significantly more unhealthy than an omniverous diet, then why do vegans and vegetarians have a longer life expectancy? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23836264

I've not yet read any further replies, so if I'm repeating what has already been said to you by others, it is independently derived. From the "study" you quoted:

• PARTICIPANTS: A total of 96,469 Seventh-day Adventist men and women recruited between 2002 and 2007, from which an analytic sample of 73,308 participants remained after exclusions.

S.D.A's - 50% or more do not smoke, drink alcohol, consume recreational drugs, drink tea/coffee or eat meat. The church of S.D.A. promotes vegetarian diets and not vegan diets.

Therefore all you have proven is that people who:

1. Don't smoke AND,
   
2. Don't drink alcohol AND,
   
3. Don't take recreational drugs AND,
   
4. Don't drink caffeine AND,
   
5. Lead a devout Christian life with community involvement and regular church attendance AND,
   
6. Eat a vegetarian diet BUT NOT a vegan diet

Have a higher life expectancy.

I know several Adventists and I've never met a vegan Adventist. Even if your quoted study did prove that vegetarian diets are healthy (which it didn't) it would not translate to vegan diets any more than it would to meat-based diets.

Quote:Secondly, many authorities disagree with your hypothesis including the NHS, which says "With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs."

From your link:

• Getting enough Vitamin B12
  The body needs vitamin B12 to maintain healthy blood and a healthy nervous system. Vitamin B12 is only found naturally in foods from animal sources. Sources for vegans are therefore limited and a vitamin B12 supplement may be needed.
  
  Sources of vitamin B12 for vegans include:
  • breakfast cereals fortified with B12
    
  • soya drinks fortified with vitamin B12
    
  • yeast extract such as Marmite

Processed foods - that's what I said. You can't get it from unprocessed natural foods that you've grown yourself. I can't imagine vegans eating breakfast cereals without milk, and I can't imagine vegans that are allergic to gluten eating marmite.

Quote:Iron- Vegans can acquire this from green leaf vegetables, beans, dried fruit, nuts in addition to fortified foods eg soya milk or breakfast cereal

And can they safely donate blood?

No.

Quote:Protein - Yes some plants generally lack some essential amino acids, but

No, all plant based protein lacks essential amino acids, that's why it's not considered as high quality as animal protein.

Quote:the ones that are lacking in for example brown rice or other grains, are not the ones lacking in pulses (eg beans and lentils and nuts) So by eating both, ones protein requirements are met. Protein quality is not a significant issue, as the study shows a vegan diet still meets our protein requirements. Secondly some plants do have complete protein, eg soya and quinoa. And there there is the mock meats which are also complete, and are made using mycoprotein.

Even by your own admission, anyone with nut allergies on a vean diet will be deficient in protein.

Quote:B12- Yes its, B12 is not found in plants. It is however made by some bacteria, and it is this source of B12 that is used in fortified foods (eg breakfast cereal soya milk, marmite etc.

"Fortified foods"? You mean processed foods.

I'll put this another way - if vegan diets are healthy and natural why do you need processed foods? I don't need to eat a single processed food to eat a healthy diet with meat and/or dairy, but you need processed foods to eat a healthy diet?

Quote:Calcium - an be found in tofu, sesame seeds and tahini (hummus), pulses and dried fruit, in addition to fortified foods /supplements.

I think that covers everything?

You've proven what I said last post - a vegan needs to plan every single meal of their lives to eat a healthy balanced diet. If you go to out to a restaurant, you're going to need to go home and eat again. If you go to a party you need to package and bring our own food.

Quote:If you feel you are lacking in a vitamin, have a multivitamin. Oh yes, also milk for vegan babies, this can be deficient in nutrients if the mothers diet is deficient, most commonly because of a lack of B12 in raw vegans. If the mother has a well planned diet this is not a problem, as expressed by the American Dietetic Association statement I quoted above.

Wrong. You have not prove that point. B12 isn't the only thing - calcium and protein is extremely important too.

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(January 19, 2014 at 12:30 pm)jg2014 Wrote: Meat eating however certainly does infringe the rights of animals.

Batshit crazy.

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(January 19, 2014 at 1:09 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Are you suggesting that animals deserve the SAME rights as humans?

Nope, he's saying they still have the right to run about and kill each other for pleasure in the wild, a right we don't have.

You don't like obtaining nutrients from processed food? I suppose you don't do much cooking then? Go read about appeals to nature.

If you try being vegan for a couple of months you find that its very easy.

The fact that seven day aventists lead the lives they do is a good thing, it enables the effect of diet on health to be separated from confounding factors. As the study shows there are most certainly vegan seven day adventists, and vegans are healthier on average.

Um, no it doesn't. You're lying. Strict SDA's are vegetarian, not vegan.

As for your answer, I'm not saying I don't eat processed foods. I might from time to time go a week or even two without any processed foods in my diet. But my point is that you are reliant upon them and I am not. I don't have to eat a single thing that comes out of a package and was made in a factory.

(January 20, 2014 at 4:23 am)jg2014 Wrote: You don't like obtaining nutrients from processed food? I suppose you don't do much cooking then? Go read about appeals to nature.

If you try being vegan for a couple of months you find that its very easy.

The fact that seven day aventists lead the lives they do is a good thing, it enables the effect of diet on health to be separated from confounding factors. As the study shows there are most certainly vegan seven day adventists, and vegans are healthier on average.

I agree. Spaghetti with tomato sauce with some tofu in it. Chili with black beans and some brown rice. Melted nutritional yeast on home-made corn chips. Smoothies with some flax seed for omega-3. These are all pretty easy to make, and not lacking in flavor or bulk.

Vegan =/= starving rabbit.

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(January 20, 2014 at 5:08 am)Aractus Wrote: Um, no it doesn't. You're lying. Strict SDA's are vegetarian, not vegan.

As for your answer, I'm not saying I don't eat processed foods. I might from time to time go a week or even two without any processed foods in my diet. But my point is that you are reliant upon them and I am not. I don't have to eat a single thing that comes out of a package and was made in a factory.

jg2014 didn't say all SDAs are vegan. S/he said there are most certainly vegan seventh day adventists, which I know to be true.

Of course there'll be a minority of vegans, hell there are a minority of vegan Anglicans - that doesn't prove anything. The SDA church does not promote vegan diets, at all. They promote a vegetarian diet.

(January 19, 2014 at 11:59 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Sorry, you've missed this one, 'KUSA', because your counterargument is clearly not of a like kind.

You are the one that completely missed the boat on this one. I only pointed out that his argument as stated is a LOGICAL FALLACY.
Just because I gave a silly comparison argument doesn't negate that.

(January 20, 2014 at 6:07 am)Aractus Wrote: Of course there'll be a minority of vegans, hell there are a minority of vegan Anglicans - that doesn't prove anything. The SDA church does not promote vegan diets, at all. They promote a vegetarian diet.

I have never disagreed that SDA primarily promotes a vegetarian diet. Never the less as the study shows many SDA ists are vegan, and they have better health.

re processed food, if eat eating proceeded food is good, eg kills bacteria in meat and increase the available energy content of starchy foods, then why is it bad that vegans have to eat some processed food. If you think you could be healthy on an diet of unprocessed food, then you will run the risk of getting food poisoning from all the raw meat you will be eating.

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(January 20, 2014 at 7:37 am)KUSA Wrote:

(January 19, 2014 at 11:59 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Sorry, you've missed this one, 'KUSA', because your counterargument is clearly not of a like kind.

You are the one that completely missed the boat on this one. I only pointed out that his argument as stated is a LOGICAL FALLACY.
Just because I gave a silly comparison argument doesn't negate that.

nope, you just don't understand what a logical fallacy is. Benny's argument is correct.

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(January 20, 2014 at 5:08 am)Aractus Wrote: Um, no it doesn't. You're lying. Strict SDA's are vegetarian, not vegan.

As for your answer, I'm not saying I don't eat processed foods. I might from time to time go a week or even two without any processed foods in my diet. But my point is that you are reliant upon them and I am not. I don't have to eat a single thing that comes out of a package and was made in a factory.

so the only thing you eat in these weeks of not eating processed food is raw meat, raw veg, fruit, milk and nuts. No bread or anything made from flour, no pasta, no vegetables which can't be eaten raw eg potatoes, no pulses which have to be cooked eg beans or lentils. is this the case? There is nothing wrong with eating processed food. Some processed food is good for health some bad. just like eating raw meat is generally bad.

(January 20, 2014 at 9:21 am)jg2014 Wrote: I have never disagreed that SDA primarily promotes a vegetarian diet. Never the less as the study shows many SDA ists are vegan, and they have better health.

No it doesn't. You're misleading people by what you're saying. There are no objective studies anywhere that show that a vegan diet is healthier than a balanced omnivorous diet. There are plenty of studies, however, that prove what people in this thread have told you from their own personal experiences which is that the majority of Vegans are deficient in a number of important areas - iron deficiency, protein deficiency, etc.

You are removing all high quality protein on a Vegan diet!!

Quote:re processed food, if eat eating proceeded food is good, eg kills bacteria in meat and increase the available energy content of starchy foods, then why is it bad that vegans have to eat some processed food. If you think you could be healthy on an diet of unprocessed food, then you will run the risk of getting food poisoning from all the raw meat you will be eating.

Firstly, you can eat pasteurized raw meat safely. But honestly, most people don't want to eat raw meat. Cooking food doesn't make it processed. A processed food is a prepacked food with a number of ingredients that you didn't make yourself and is generally ready for immediate consumption.

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(January 20, 2014 at 9:21 am)jg2014 Wrote: so the only thing you eat in these weeks of not eating processed food is raw meat, raw veg, fruit, milk and nuts. No bread or anything made from flour, no pasta, no vegetables which can't be eaten raw eg potatoes, no pulses which have to be cooked eg beans or lentils. is this the case? There is nothing wrong with eating processed food. Some processed food is good for health some bad. just like eating raw meat is generally bad.

Um no, I didn't say that. I said processed not uncooked.

Question 1
I am vegetarian (almost vegan if wouldn't be for the mozzarella on the pizza) and i don't take B12 supplement.
I am still alive and well.
How is possible considering that somebody said that without B12 you can't make it?
Question 2
Herbivores do not eat meat (obviously) so how come that their flesh is full of B12?