(January 28, 2014 at 2:42 am)bennyboy Wrote: Who gets to decide what organism has the right range of emotions to merit their being spared by my ravenous appetite?

Society.

Today, eating people is seen as wrong. But give it a few hundred years in the possible future, the oil ran out, another massive world war, the survivors are living in a post apocalyptic world. Eating other humans would be seen as fine.

All i'm trying to say is that there is nothing physically wrong with eating other humans.

Actually it has been proven that human tastes a lot like veal.

You all must be very delicious...

(January 28, 2014 at 11:43 am)No_God Wrote: Actually it has been proven that human tastes a lot like veal.

You all must be very delicious...

I saw a vsauce video that pointed that out.
It would have to get really bad for me to ever find out first hand but it's nice to know it will be tasty.

I love VSauce.

(January 28, 2014 at 2:42 am)bennyboy Wrote: Who gets to decide what organism has the right range of emotions to merit their being spared by my ravenous appetite?

It really doesn't matter about the emotions. If I came across an outer space alien that had a broader range of emotions and was smarter than me it wouldn't bother me at all to eat it if given the opportunity.

(January 28, 2014 at 5:21 pm)KUSA Wrote:

(January 28, 2014 at 2:42 am)bennyboy Wrote: Who gets to decide what organism has the right range of emotions to merit their being spared by my ravenous appetite?

It really doesn't matter about the emotions. If I came across an outer space alien that had a broader range of emotions and was smarter than me it wouldn't bother me at all to eat it if given the opportunity.

Right. So this argument, that animals experience emotions differently (and possibly less) than humans doesn't work. In my opinion, all of the arguments for eating meat fail:
-it's necessary (no it's not, because there are healthy vegans)
-animals can't feel as we do (irrelevant, and probalby false)
-it's okay, because they are not human (special pleading)

It also seems that the vegetarian argument than switching to a vegetarian diet will reduce suffering and loss of life, may also be false, due to industrial farming practices.

I think the reason people eat meat is because they WANT to eat it, and because they can. We are in a position where it's easy for us as a species to arrange for the opportunity to eat meat, and we are programmed to appreciate the high quality protein and large caloric content of it. It's not a moral decision or an immoral one. I'd say for most people it's amoral.

But I think it SHOULD be a moral decision. If humans are better than other animals, on any level, it is that we have the capacity to use reason to overcome our other programming. And given an understanding of suffering, and a reasonably easy means of reducing very much suffering, the moral choice is to take those steps to reduce it.

Most arguments to allow eating meat can be used to defend having an arranged/Forced marriage with a 12 year old girl

1) We have eaten meat for thousands of years Its just natural

We have had arranged marriages with 12 year old's for thousands of years its just natural

2) But meat TASTES so good
Sex with 12 year old girls feels so good

3) Its Ok to eat meat because they are just animals
Its ok to forcibly marry little girls because they are just little girls

4) God gave us animals to eat
God said it was OK to marry 12 year old girls

5) We need meat because its good for our health

We need sex because it is good for our health

6) We can use Animals because they can't make contracts
we can use little girls because they can't make contracts

7) We can use animals because man has gone to the moon, built great buildings and animals haven't[/i]
We can use little girls because man has gone to the moon, built great buildings and ltle girls haven't

The same could be said for vegetarianism/ veganism.

Face it guys, it is a personal preference that you want to feel special about.

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And that is just fine.

So STOP beating others for their personal preference

(January 28, 2014 at 3:33 am)Aractus Wrote: You didn't even attempt to answer most of my questions - you completely ignored the issue of recyclables versus non-recyclables.

Firstly, your entire assumption is wrong. This has already been pointed out to you - the body synthesises many things that are still required in our diet. B12 for instance (we actually don't do it ourselves but bacteria in our guts do - yet we still require it in our diet).

Health experts recommend avoiding flour and sugar if you have high cholesterol. Two things that have nothing to do with meat itself. So you can shove your statement up your ass - "all the studies show"... really? One of the foods recommended by health professionals is fish - to lower cholesterol.

You need to stop with the half-informative bullshit because although there may be a grain of truth to some of the things you say, most of them are totally bullshit and are simply what you want to believe is true.

Look back over my posts, I don't think I've said a single time that vegetarian diet that includes eggs and dairy is unhealthy or unwise. Vegan diets are however very unwise for most people, if not all people. Compared to a healthy, balanced, vegetarian diet a vegan diet offers no improvements whatsoever.

Furthermore there is not a moral issue with eggs and dairy. I've listened to that much bullshit in this thread - I drive past a sheep paddock every day - no a single one of them looks upset or annoyed or distressed or sick or suffering. On my aunt's farm where she has horses and cattle - none of them - neither the horses or the cattle - look like any of those either. If an animal gets sick its needs are attended to - generally the local vet is called to come out. They all live off grass 90%+ of the time. She has one very fat horse which fattened herself up on grass - so I can assure you that they all have plenty to eat.

I have no clue as to how your mind is so warped. There is no moral issue with the meat that we eat. Nor the fish that are farmed or hunted - nor the kangaroo (or in Canada the seals) that are hunted.

Re the effect on the environment, plenty of synthetic fibers are also recyclable, while the environmental cost of livestock is huge, responsible for 18% of greenhouse gas emissions.

Re a comparison between b12 and cholesterol

Firstly B12 deficiency in the diet actually causes disease, there is no evidence however that cholesterol deficiency causes any illness.
Secondly the b12 that is made in the human gut is poorly absorbed, as it is made after the ilium, consists largely of inactive pseudo b12, and lastly most people do not have the bacteria required to be able to make it. The evidence of human production of B12 in the gut is poor.

Re cholesterol and fish, this is rather a special case becasuse although it has high levels of cholesterol, it also contains omega 3 fatty acids inhibit the production of LDL cholesterol in the liver, reducing the amount of bad cholesterol overall.

The fact is in all the many studies I have posted they all show veganism is beneficial to health. You talk about me not answering your questions but you are yet to provide any actual evidence of disease caused by a well balanced vegan diet which I have asked for repeatedly

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(January 27, 2014 at 6:26 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: So you would just let the species go extinct?

No, I would be happy if a small number were kept in animal sanctuaries if they could not survive in the wild.

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(January 28, 2014 at 5:19 am)bennyboy Wrote: I did try vegan once, and I had a similar experience to that others have mentioned in this thread-- quick weight loss, dizziness, etc. But that doesn't mean there's anything unhealthy about being vegan-- it means you have to eat much more carefully and plan a lot better.

Most likely this was caused by too few calories, but if you try to vegan again you should talk to a nutritionist and /or GP

Question.
Somebody said that while herbivores have the bacteria to produce b12 human being have not such a bacteria.
Now could be that people eating meat have not such a bacteria because their body does not need to produce them as they get b12 from meat while vegetarians and vegan develop such a bacteria as they don't get b12 from meat so their body-mind see the need to produce these bacteria?
Has anyone check the guts of meat eating people and veg to see whether there is a difference in bacteria?