@Rhythm: I hadn't really considered it from that angle. Good post! You've given me a lot to think about.

Quote:The fact is we do benefit greatly from seigniorage largely because of our military.

Imperialist warmonger.

Our military is built -to a t- for police actions. Not might, not a modern war, not for a threatening deterrent. It is equipped and trained to do one of two things. Impose the will of a regime, or topple that regime. We keep picking on little desert countries and then puffing our chests "See, see how mighty we are! This is the sort of power that all of this funding buys!" - it's theatre for the worrisome. Truth of the matter, is that "imposing the will" bit and "toppling the regime" is actually what's been buying us all this "goodwill" abroad for awhile. Our military, by it's mere existence, does not grant us any magical immunity or deference. This is why we could have a better military (for doing all the stuff we do, the stuff that gets us that cred we seem to like) while spending far less on said military.

(June 23, 2014 at 4:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Our military is built -to a t- for police actions. Not might, not a modern war, not for a threatening deterrent. It is equipped and trained to do one of two things. Impose the will of a regime, or topple that regime. We keep picking on little desert countries and then puffing our chests "See, see how mighty we are! This is the sort of power that all of this funding buys!" - it's theatre for the worrisome. Truth of the matter, is that "imposing the will" bit and "toppling the regime" is actually what's been buying us all this "goodwill" abroad for awhile. Our military, by it's mere existence, does not grant us any magical immunity or deference. This is why we could have a better military (for doing all the stuff we do, the stuff that gets us that cred we seem to like) while spending far less on said military.

A lot of military spending is not on actual tanks, bombs, and guns but on people costs. Medical benefits, retiree benefits, wages(we pay our soldiers very well compared to other countries). Contractors are required to pay their employees a prevailing wage. If a new building is built on a base, the construction workers get paid government prevailing wage....but on the budget it shows as a capital purchase...not an expense on personnel. In many ways the DOD is being utilized as wealth transfer vehicle....a social program.

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(June 23, 2014 at 4:22 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:The fact is we do benefit greatly from seigniorage largely because of our military.

Imperialist warmonger.

Seigniorage comes from stability not from waging wars. The US government is not likely to be toppled anytime soon. That is one of the reasons the US dollar is the world's reserve currency and the Iraq Dinar isn't.

(June 24, 2014 at 7:41 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(June 23, 2014 at 4:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Our military is built -to a t- for police actions. Not might, not a modern war, not for a threatening deterrent. It is equipped and trained to do one of two things. Impose the will of a regime, or topple that regime. We keep picking on little desert countries and then puffing our chests "See, see how mighty we are! This is the sort of power that all of this funding buys!" - it's theatre for the worrisome. Truth of the matter, is that "imposing the will" bit and "toppling the regime" is actually what's been buying us all this "goodwill" abroad for awhile. Our military, by it's mere existence, does not grant us any magical immunity or deference. This is why we could have a better military (for doing all the stuff we do, the stuff that gets us that cred we seem to like) while spending far less on said military.

A lot of military spending is not on actual tanks, bombs, and guns but on people costs. Medical benefits, retiree benefits, wages(we pay our soldiers very well compared to other countries). Contractors are required to pay their employees a prevailing wage. If a new building is built on a base, the construction workers get paid government prevailing wage....but on the budget it shows as a capital purchase...not an expense on personnel. In many ways the DOD is being utilized as wealth transfer vehicle....a social program.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but [citation needed]. "A lot" is pretty vague. Care to quantify that?

Even if that's the case, it's my opinion that the T.O. & E. required for national defense is far, far less than what we currently spend. Our military is structured to *project* power, not protect our borders.

(June 24, 2014 at 7:41 pm)Heywood Wrote: Seigniorage comes from stability not from waging wars. The US government is not likely to be toppled anytime soon. That is one of the reasons the US dollar is the world's reserve currency and the Iraq Dinar isn't.

Care to wager on when the US dollar is supplanted by something else, say the Euro or the Chinese yuan?

(June 24, 2014 at 7:54 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 7:41 pm)Heywood Wrote: Seigniorage comes from stability not from waging wars. The US government is not likely to be toppled anytime soon. That is one of the reasons the US dollar is the world's reserve currency and the Iraq Dinar isn't.

Care to wager on when the US dollar is supplanted by something else, say the Euro or the Chinese yuan?

Cut military spending to 0 and it would happen basically overnight. Cut it by 50% and it happens sooner than if it is left at current levels. My point is that a lot of people who want to drastically cut defense do not realize the non military value it provides.

(June 24, 2014 at 7:41 pm)Heywood Wrote: A lot of military spending is not on actual tanks, bombs, and guns but on people costs.

Meh, I had to wait 6 weeks in theater to get a kevlar vest (by which time I'd actually bought one from local arms dealers), because my unit was still using cold war flak jackets in 2001. Agreed though, plenty is whittled away without anyone producing a piece of hardware- and it's this whittling that could be cut.

Quote:Medical benefits, retiree benefits, wages(we pay our soldiers very well compared to other countries). Contractors are required to pay their employees a prevailing wage. If a new building is built on a base, the construction workers get paid government prevailing wage....but on the budget it shows as a capital purchase...not an expense on personnel. In many ways the DOD is being utilized as wealth transfer vehicle....a social program.

Indeed. All but the soldiers getting paid well bit, just because other countries treat soldiers like slaves doesn't mean that our system of borderline indentured servitude is somehow decent or a pro of the system as it currently is. When I was an E1 I made 900 bucks a month (this is infantry pay, trigger puller pay, bullet sponge pay), you could call a room and board perks - but that isn't exactly adding a whopping sum to the pay. Especially considering that the room was a portion of a c hut shorter than I am long, and the board was largely cornflakes and hotdogs (love you mama Brown!). Pay has been increased a few times since then, but could it have actually gone down? I doubt it. I was making more money flipping burgers. Getting more consistent strange too.

(by the by, as per the above...why does the service need to train and retain cooks when it outsources cooking to Brown and Root at the earliest convenience? Can you imagine how nerve wracking it is to go on a patrol with a gaggle of professional ladle washers pretending to be GI Joe? - look how quickly I found some money, fire the cooks.)

(June 24, 2014 at 8:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 7:41 pm)Heywood Wrote: A lot of military spending is not on actual tanks, bombs, and guns but on people costs.

Meh, I had to wait 6 weeks in theater to get a kevlar vest (by which time I'd actually bought one from local arms dealers), because my unit was still using cold war flak jackets in 2001. Agreed though, plenty is whittled away without anyone producing a piece of hardware- and it's this whittling that could be cut.

Quote:Medical benefits, retiree benefits, wages(we pay our soldiers very well compared to other countries). Contractors are required to pay their employees a prevailing wage. If a new building is built on a base, the construction workers get paid government prevailing wage....but on the budget it shows as a capital purchase...not an expense on personnel. In many ways the DOD is being utilized as wealth transfer vehicle....a social program.

Indeed. All but the soldiers getting paid well bit, just because other countries treat soldiers like slaves doesn't mean that our system of borderline indentured servitude is somehow decent or a pro of the system as it currently is. When I was an E1 I made 900 bucks a month (this is infantry pay, trigger puller pay, bullet sponge pay), you could call a room and board perks - but that isn't exactly adding a whopping sum to the pay. Especially considering that the room was a portion of a c hut shorter than I am long, and the board was largely cornflakes and hotdogs (love you mama Brown!). Pay has been increased a few times since then, but could it have actually gone down? I doubt it. I was making more money flipping burgers. Getting more consistent strange too.

After 4 years in the military you'll be at least an E4. If you have a wife and couple of kids you'll be earning about $50,000 a year. That's more than a typical college graduate. Further you will have free use of gyms, rec centers, child care, and tax free shopping. Now pile on bonuses and special pay....the military is not a bad gig.

4 in the infantry and you're probably an E5 (or fast tracking to it), granted, the gap between the new recruit and the E5 is a large one, but I could (and then did) make more money driving a garbage truck than commanding a team of soldiers. E6 seems to be about the point where it normalizes with the sort of job a person capable of being an NCO could get -anywhere-. The military is most definitely not a -good gig- either. It's something you stick with because you want to, not because it;s likely to be your best option. Know whwre all my buddies went? Private contractors ASAP, better pay, better food, better perks.