(July 17, 2014 at 10:12 am)Jenny A Wrote: Portland used to have the "Twenty-Four Hour Church of Elvis." It was a collection of integrated pay for show/vending machines and dispensed various trinkets for coins. Is Elvis a religion?

David Grohl considers music to be his religion, so I guess Elvis could be a religion if a group of people worshiped him

(July 17, 2014 at 10:15 am)Blackout Wrote:

(July 17, 2014 at 10:12 am)Jenny A Wrote: Portland used to have the "Twenty-Four Hour Church of Elvis." It was a collection of integrated pay for show/vending machines and dispensed various trinkets for coins. Is Elvis a religion?

David Grohl considers music to be his religion, so I guess Elvis could be a religion if a group of people worshiped him

Not sure about worship exactly, but a startling number of people claim to have seen him after he died---Elvis not Grohl of course.

(July 17, 2014 at 10:05 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(July 17, 2014 at 10:02 am)Blackout Wrote: Don't take churches so seriously. If I crated the church of Batman would it be taken as a religion? No probably as a joke only

But Batman fell and was broken on the knee of Bane, and rose again some days later to purge evil from the city!

I hadn't heard the latest witness. Is He now Batman the White perhaps?

Atheism is a religion, like bald is a haircut and abstinence is a sex position, makes perfect sense. A religion requires a certain core of beliefs and dogmas, rules, orientations and positions that all members ought to respect. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in god or the belief that gods do not exist, it's not a religion since it has zero dogmas, zero books with rules, zero common beliefs. The only think atheists can have in common is at least the lack of belief in gods, but even there some will be gnostic others agnostic, so it's not a really common trait.

(July 16, 2014 at 9:22 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Okay first of all I want to know that right know I am a little angry, but don’t let that stop from speaking your mind okay, nor I want you to think I'm attacking someone in here.
Now the stuff is this. I was talking with a creationist that suffers from atheophobia. Even when she is an atheophobic she doesn't encourage anyone to hurt atheist however she constantly do what most atheophobics do, you know: diminish, ridicules, ignore, mock, denigrate and insult atheism. And while we were talking she drops out the classical “Atheism is a religion.” Witch of course I claim it wasn’t truth. And imagine my surprise when she gave me a list of names and locations and examples of atheist churches. I am from a third world country and in here there aren't such churches much less heard of anything like that. And so I decided to look and prove that there aren’t such things, which I can’t because there are in fact atheist churches.
So I was wondering if anyone could be so kind of explaining to me WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WITH THOSE CHURCHES!!

Because I always thought that CREATING A CHURCH IS THE LAST DAMN THING WE ATHEIST WILL DO!
Why would we create them in the first place. What would atheists go there? What the hell do they do there? And most important: WHY THE HELL DO THOSE ATHEISTS THINK THAT ASSIST TO A CHURCH ISN’T RELIGIOUS?

You mean Sunday Assemblies? It's the media calling them 'atheist churches', not the people doing them.

And ten million churches, temples, and synogogues don't make theism a religion; some atheist meetings with speakers and sing-alongs certainly don't make atheism a religion.

Yep, while we as atheists may some of us have certain core beliefs in common, they are never such as to constitute a religion. Some of us may have common attitudes toward evidence or the supernatural or cosmology or origins or evolution or any of another of other topics which often become bones of contention with theists. But what we think about any of these things will vary. No position on any other subject is guaranteed just by knowing someone is an atheist. We just don't have a belief in gods, and only some of us will claim to know gods do not exist.

The same should be true among theists, but since most religions as practiced seem to prescribe dogmatic shared beliefs, that isn't what we most often find. Of course theists who do not take the low road in this regard do exist. They're just rare.

(July 16, 2014 at 9:45 pm)Polaris Wrote: Atheism in certain forms can be viewed as religion as can many other ideas per the definition "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance."

A religion could be atheistic, just as most religions are theistic. A particular religion is not a 'form' of atheism or theism. They are opinions on a single topic and either or neither may be a feature of a relgion or philosophy.

And using the definition you cite is equivocation when real religions are being discussed. It's like using the meaning of 'light' as 'composed of photons in a visible frequency' in a conversation about feathers and balloons. Yes, photons don't weigh very much, but that's not really the point of the conversation.

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(July 16, 2014 at 9:54 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(July 16, 2014 at 9:45 pm)Polaris Wrote: Atheism in certain forms can be viewed as religion as can many other ideas per the definition "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance."

I doubt that for many atheists, atheism is a "pursuit or interest" let alone one of "supreme interest"--rather fewer as a % than say chess enthusiasts or liberals or tea party conservatives. I'm enjoying the forum, but "supreme interest?" Hardly.

This. It's an opinion on one topic. It's hardly the most important thing to me, or to know about me. In fact, it's more important that people be aware that it's not that important; and that's not supremely important either.

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(July 16, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Whatever it is that forms the basis of their so-called church must be something other than atheism.
My guess is anti-theism. Attaching the name church to it is a bit odd but not equal to religion in the sense anti-theism is typically concerned with. Add a value system that includes political action and unfettered devotion to unsubstantiated claims and now you're in religion's domain.

I would guess it's some desire for community with like-minded folks. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make it church. Religions don't own the idea of community gatherings.

(July 16, 2014 at 10:04 pm)whateverist Wrote: Some atheists have told me they miss the 'community' of church going.

I don't. Their community is a bunch of busybody stuck up snobs drinking their tea and dipping their biscuits, who will not give you the time of day.

(July 17, 2014 at 3:17 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:

(July 16, 2014 at 10:04 pm)whateverist Wrote: Some atheists have told me they miss the 'community' of church going.

I don't. Their community is a bunch of busybody stuck up snobs drinking their tea and dipping their biscuits, who will not give you the time of day.

I was too young to form an opinion the last time I attended church as a kid. Though the one time I went with my father just to be a sport they sure didn't appreciate my being open-minded.

I suppose the quality of the social experience may vary. But I'm with you in saying no thanks regardless.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 16, 2014 at 10:04 pm)whateverist Wrote: Some atheists have told me they miss the 'community' of church going.

I can understand that however the reason why we atheist stop going to church I think is more important, meaningful and relevant don't you agree?

I would presume atheists stop going to church because they no longer agree with enough of what that church teaches. Atheists aren't defined by not going to church. They are defined by not believing in God.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 16, 2014 at 10:04 pm)whateverist Wrote: Then there is the obvious tax break angle.

Which only applies to religious, therefore it either turns atheism into a religion or makes those atheists hypocrites. I'm inclined to the second.

In the USA, it applies to any 501©3 charity, of which religious organizations are only one example. An atheist organization could easily qualify if its nonprofit and engages in charitable activities. Unless the atheists involved preach not getting tax exemptions or engaging in charity, it's not hypocritical at all.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 16, 2014 at 10:04 pm)whateverist Wrote: Even if one were to go this route, it would hardly make atheism a religion.

I alway ask the theist who claim atheism is a religion that:
Do we kneel? Because theists kneel.

This seems rather the wrong tack to take. It's not a religion for the same reason theism isn't a religion. It doesn't fit the definition. Atheists in a monarchy might kneel to their king or queen.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Do we gather on Sunday? Because theists do.

Those of us who gather, gather on all kinds of days, depending on what's convenient. Sundays being days off for most of us makes them a prime candidate. Are Seven Day Adventists and Jews any less religious because they gather on a Saturday?

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Do we seek comfort in a church instead of knowledge? Because theists do that as well.

False dichotomy. The same person could easily find comfort in both, though knowledge tends to be useful or entertaining rather than comforting. Many people find comfort in community and atheists should not be excluded from participating in the communities of their choice.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Do we have to pay penitence for breaking our convictions? Because theists pay penitence for breaking their religious convictions, or a promise of penitence.

In my opinion, we ought to make restitution or otherwise compensate those we've wronged, when we can. We certainly should be sorry for it, and reflect on how we can avoid repeating our mistakes where we've hurt others or damaged important relationships.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Do we confess? Because theists confess.

When they say 'confession is good for the soul', the implication is that admitting what you've done wrong is psychologically healthy, it shouldn't be taken so literally that it becomes a solely religious practice. Not going to see a priest is one thing, not copping to being the one who stole the ice cream is another.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Do our good deeds are done to fulfill the promise of a future reward? Because theists say their good deeds will give them a future reward.

You're on to something here, but to nitpick, I fully anticipate that when I do something good, I will feel good for having done it. That's a future reward. It's no eternal paradise, but it's nice.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Do we get our morals from hearing strangers reading lectures? Because theists use their sermons and texts as a sources of moral dogmas.

Again, tend to agree broadly with you here, but lectures have certainly informed my thinking about morality.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Apparently I can't never use that statement again do I?

I recommend: 'First, prove theism is a religion, then we can talk about atheism being one'.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 16, 2014 at 9:45 pm)Polaris Wrote: Atheism in certain forms can be viewed as religion

By whom?....

Mostly by theists insecure in their faith looking for a tu quoque objection to atheism that inadvertently exposes that they agree that taking things completely on faith is a sorry way to form opinions.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 16, 2014 at 9:55 pm)ignoramus Wrote: What is the definition of a "church"
The Freemasons gather in their "church"

I think of them as a club.
Mind you, with most clubs, moola needs to swap hands....

So technically that doesn’t makes us a religion but a…cult?
A lodge?

A club. A fraternal organization. What it says on the label.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 16, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Whatever it is that forms the basis of their so-called church must be something other than atheism.

I think that only makes things worse isn't it?

That doesn't seem to follow.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 16, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: My guess is anti-theism. Attaching the name church to it is a bit odd but not equal to religion in the sense anti-theism is typically concerned with.

Then why they did attached the name church? I mean do you think that’s the kind of atheism that we should pass to our future generations?

You should take that up with the people labeling it a 'church'. That's not what the people involved are calling it.

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(July 17, 2014 at 12:23 am)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 17, 2014 at 12:19 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: What would that reason be?

Ah I dunno maybe it's because.
That we don't believe in God?

So a 'church' that doesn't involve believing in God, if you want to join in with the theists and the press in calling them churches, shouldn't pose a problem for an atheist.

(July 17, 2014 at 12:23 am)Zidneya Wrote: Nor we want to be part of a religious system that: condones atrocities in it's name, encourage people to conform with ignorance and superstition and let a bunch two thousand year old scriptures tell us how to live our lives.

Humanism doesn't seem to be such a system.

(July 17, 2014 at 12:23 am)Zidneya Wrote: Those are pretty good reasons of why leaving church don't you think?

Yes. They don't seem to be very good reasons to avoid participating in a Sunday Assembly or a Unitarian Universalist service, though.

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(July 17, 2014 at 2:19 am)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 17, 2014 at 12:25 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: Yes, I do. Now, what atheist doctrine is out there that would command atheists to do any of the things you just described?

Command atheist to do? Let me see if I understand this you are asking me to name or search an atheist doctrine that command us to do something? So that's why we stop going to church? In order to change one doctrine of commandments for another one?

You've not identified ANY 'atheist' doctrine or dogma of these groups with which to accuse them.

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(July 17, 2014 at 3:38 am)rexbeccarox Wrote:

(July 17, 2014 at 3:22 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: I think she's merely pointing out the differences between a religious church (which demands adherence to a set of rules for no other reason than they appear in Scripture) and a group of atheists that use church as a broader synonym for like-minded community (and like I said, I would suspect this has more to do with anti-religious sentiments rather than simply skepticism).

Exactly. "Church" may be evolving to mean "congregation". This is just a matter of semantics. It's really unfortunate that groups of atheists are using the term, given its meaning, but it doesn't mean that the atheist "churches" are adhering to the contents of any religious (probably especially Christian) dogma; and I would be surprised if any have any dogma at all.

It isn't at all clear that it's the atheists involved are using the term rather than the composers of attention-grabbing headlines.

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(July 17, 2014 at 3:40 am)ignoramus Wrote: I just find it weird that we need a common place to celebrate the "default".
The whole world is the default. Those who want to believe in weird shit should go to a special place and congregate with others as they do now in church.

There must be another angle to it......

Let's see: community of like minded persons, greater opportunities for involvement in charitable action, networking, something to do on Sunday morning, a chance to have the kids in class while you listen to an educational lecture, maybe you like sing-alongs, promotion of humanism, promotion of science, promotion of equal rights for atheists, promotion of political secularism...there are a plethora of other angles to it.

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(July 17, 2014 at 4:20 am)ignoramus Wrote: Reb, what you describe sounds great!

It's exactly what Sunday Assemblies are doing.

(July 17, 2014 at 4:20 am)ignoramus Wrote: Why can't they meet at places like this?

They are.

(July 17, 2014 at 4:20 am)ignoramus Wrote: Reb, is there any religious oversight in those places at all?

No, because they are not religious in nature.

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(July 17, 2014 at 8:05 am)whateverist Wrote: Oh it needed derailing. No worries there. Still what would you have to do to get the same tax exempt status as a church. I think you should really push this as far as possible. No woo whatsoever .. and we expect the same financial incentives as any other place of whatever you want to call it.

501©3 status is the same tax-exempt status churches have. Non-churches generally have to do more paperwork to get it, though.