Quote:Did I miss anything?

Every point so far.

Boru

(July 29, 2014 at 1:46 am)Esquilax Wrote: What cost was that, pray tell?

What base experience can we gather from being beaten and nailed on a cross?

Is it just me or is pain and lots of it being communicated here?

Quote:How exactly is sinning "against" god when it doesn't affect him in the slightest?

how is it that you know what affects God?

Quote:Besides, I didn't realize god was owed a sinless environment for w

hich we're accruing debt. Your theology makes no sense!
[/quote]

Are you not familiar with the story of Adam and Eve? If yes then what was it that got them kicked out of the sinless environment of Eden?

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(July 29, 2014 at 2:29 am)Alice Wrote:

(July 28, 2014 at 11:36 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: I have finally admitted that almost everyone here is a sock puppet of mine.

Alice is in charge of the rest.


Don't know who let YOU in !!

He's mine, silly boy. Look at that... 5K posts, and reasonable reputation... he's a unique character in my little story.

Oh Dirchy Sock (he likes it when I call him that), won't you play with me some more?

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(July 28, 2014 at 11:38 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Hey now, nobody is sticking a hand up my ass so I'm doubt I'm a sock puppet

Then, what's with the hand coming out of your stomach? That looks painful.

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(July 29, 2014 at 12:01 am)PaulMaul Wrote: I am a meat popsicle.

Probably the wrong thing to declare when Alice is passing over...

:S

(July 29, 2014 at 7:48 am)Drich Wrote: What base experience can we gather from being beaten and nailed on a cross?

Yeah, I get that, but you were saying it's a physical manifestation of the spiritual cost god incurred in forgiving us, but that's nonsensical. What spiritual cost? How hard is it to forgive people? I do it all the time.

Quote:Is it just me or is pain and lots of it being communicated here?

And that could just mean god's a melodramatic pussy.

Quote:how is it that you know what affects God?

You were the one just telling us that sins affect god, as it "costed" him to forgive them... so the same question could easily be leveled against you. But I'm the only one of us speaking purely hypothetically.

Quote:Are you not familiar with the story of Adam and Eve? If yes then what was it that got them kicked out of the sinless environment of Eden?

An abstract instance of disobedience from a pair of people with no knowledge that disobedience was wrong, based around a tree that god didn't need to create or keep in the garden, that costed god nothing and led to wildly disproportionate retribution, inflicted upon billions of people that had nothing to do with the initial act?

What is pain to a god? Particularly when it's supposed to have planned the whole thing in advance and knew it was coming up?

Actually, a rather chilling thought just occurred. Did this god - at least within the context of the story - need to experience pain and death because it had no prior knowledge of them and how they feel on a human level? Because if that is supposed to be the case, all those immoral commands to slaughter in the OT just got ratcheted up by several orders of magnitude in the cold-blooded psychokiller league.

(July 29, 2014 at 9:57 am)Stimbo Wrote: Actually, a rather chilling thought just occurred. Did this god - at least within the context of the story - need to experience pain and death because it had no prior knowledge of them and how they feel on a human level? Because if that is supposed to be the case, all those immoral commands to slaughter in the OT just got ratcheted up by several orders of magnitude in the cold-blooded psychokiller league.

Not just in the OT, because as of the NT we now have a god, in this scenario, who knows how bad pain is to humans, who went through what his followers will play up to be a massive, torturous sacrifice... and learned nothing from the endeavor. If what you say is correct, god went through all that and came out with no additional empathy for people, no desire to do charitable works like preventing the pain of humanity... no change at all. Now that's crazy; even in fucking fairy tales when the protagonist walks a mile in someone else's shoes he goddamn learns a lesson and changes.

So which is it, christians? Do you have a god who knows how utterly horrific the pain that occurs on earth is, and does nothing? Or a god that learned first hand in the form of Jesus, but lacked the empathy to learn from that at all?

Good point. That just blew the psychokiller league away.

(July 29, 2014 at 9:22 am)Esquilax Wrote: Yeah, I get that, but you were saying it's a physical manifestation of the spiritual cost god incurred in forgiving us, but that's nonsensical. What spiritual cost? How hard is it to forgive people? I do it all the time.

to absolutly everyone who asks, no matter what they have done, no matter who they are on a planetary scale, spanning the whole of human history?
-or-
Do you just forgive a few more than what is beyond your inner circle? Is that forgiveness or is that what is in your self interest?

To forgive a heinous sin committed against you their is a great personal cost.

Quote:You were the one just telling us that sins affect god, as it "costed" him to forgive them... so the same question could easily be leveled against you. But I'm the only one of us speaking purely hypothetically.

if you ask me I can point to the bible where it tells us there was a great cost to God to forgive the sins of the whole world.

To the question now returns to you. How do you know what thinks or feels?

Quote:An abstract instance of disobedience from a pair of people with no knowledge that disobedience was wrong,

Not true. They knew disobedience resulted in death.

Quote: based around a tree that god didn't need to create or keep in the garden, that costed god nothing and led to wildly disproportionate retribution, inflicted upon billions of people that had nothing to do with the initial act?

With out the tree their could be no choice. We all have always been given a choice whether or not to follow God or go our own way.

The greater point I was making was we from the beginning we were provided a sinless environment , and it is only in this sinless environment can we commune with God. If we wish to commune with God we owe a sin debt. One that we can not repay, but one Christ paided for us.

Does 'my' theology still confuse you?

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(July 29, 2014 at 9:57 am)Stimbo Wrote: What is pain to a god?

Pain is pain/suffering period. Christ was so worked up over the up coming pain He was to experience He sweat blood in prayer.

Quote: Particularly when it's supposed to have planned the whole thing in advance and knew it was coming up?

I had to have surgery on my hand a few years back, and even if it was planned and I knew what was going to happen, I still experienced pain.

Planning has nothing to do with the avoiding pain.

Quote:Actually, a rather chilling thought just occurred. Did this god - at least within the context of the story - need to experience pain and death because it had no prior knowledge of them and how they feel on a human level? Because if that is supposed to be the case, all those immoral commands to slaughter in the OT just got ratcheted up by several orders of magnitude in the cold-blooded psychokiller league.

The sacrifice on the Cross was not for the benefit of God. The pain and suffering witnessed on the cross was for the benfit of man so we would have some idea as to the cost of forgiveness.[/quote]

Drich, you are doing good, but I would like to 2 cents:

Because God is perfectly just, the scales of justice require a payment for injustice.
Only a perfect being can redeem an imperfect one.
The imperfect one, having his own debt cannot redeem himself.

If you owe a million dollars and you do not have it- your only shot is letting someone else pay it for you.
If you refuse the offer of payment- you have to pay the penalty.
It is an issue of justice.
And in this case, the Judge paid our pardon, but we are required to take it, or the pardon is left on the table and does not belong to us.

(July 29, 2014 at 9:19 pm)Drich Wrote: to absolutly everyone who asks, no matter what they have done, no matter who they are on a planetary scale, spanning the whole of human history?

Well, there's a threshold, but at the point at which it has passed one really needs to be asking why god ever would reward such a person. God seems to really lack discernment.

Quote:To forgive a heinous sin committed against you their is a great personal cost.

But this is the real problem here, because none of those crimes, no matter how great, affect god in the slightest. Even assuming he forgives everyone ever out of hand... there's no cost to that. Merely asserting one doesn't demonstrate it, especially when you're still just talking in abstracts.

Quote: if you ask me I can point to the bible where it tells us there was a great cost to God to forgive the sins of the whole world.

... And fails to mention what that cost is. But why would you point me to the same random, vague assertion in the bible, knowing ahead of time that I don't think the bible is infallible? The fact that your poorly constructed theology is a part of the biblical narrative doesn't make it better.

Quote:To the question now returns to you. How do you know what thinks or feels?

I don't believe he exists? But costs can be demonstrated, or at least stated, and at this point I also have no reason to believe any cost actually applies to divine forgiveness, because of the evasiveness of the people trying to explain it. Things need to be demonstrated; I don't care if the bible asserts there's a cost, I want to know what it is.

Quote:Not true. They knew disobedience resulted in death.

... From a position where they had no concept of what death was, and no concept of good and evil. You might as well say that they knew disobedience resulted in flornax: without any idea of what that is, it's not exactly a cogently presented consequence, now is it?

Quote:
With out the tree their could be no choice. We all have always been given a choice whether or not to follow God or go our own way.

Seems a bit passive aggressive, really? Do you put a nuclear bomb in your kid's playpen, because he needs a choice whether or not to touch it?

I really don't think the scenario here is improved by noting that god specifically formulated the most danger ever and placed it in close proximity to his children in order to get them to hurt themselves so he can say "I told you so."

Quote:The greater point I was making was we from the beginning we were provided a sinless environment , and it is only in this sinless environment can we commune with God. If we wish to commune with God we owe a sin debt. One that we can not repay, but one Christ paided for us.

Fiat assertion of a debt for something I didn't do doesn't convince me. I'm an individual person, supposedly imbued with free will, why am I being packaged in along with everyone else with this nonsense?

Quote:Does 'my' theology still confuse you?

Yes. But then, I am actually thinking about it, so that's no surprise.

(July 29, 2014 at 12:01 am)PaulMaul Wrote: I am a meat popsicle.

Tell me more, please.

Sounds delish . . .