(August 20, 2014 at 6:42 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(August 16, 2014 at 8:59 am)Brian37 Wrote: I am sick of republicans and libertarians and Ayn Rand assholes claiming that "get government out of the way" helps.

Sometimes the government can fix a problem, sometimes it cannot, and sometimes it makes the problem worse. Take each case on its own merits.

Myself, I lean towards smaller government simply because I don't trust institutionalized power.

Sometimes government can act positively, and I do believe that social equality issues are one arena where it can and does help ... and I'm a libertarian.

Glad I'm not the only one around here saying roughly the same.

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(August 20, 2014 at 1:01 pm)Brakeman Wrote: So would either of you care to describe a rule to teach to policemen about being attacked while they are armed? Currently the cop is taught that he is not to let an assailant gain control of his weapon, so that any serious attacks on himself are to be met with deadly force.

How would you change the rules for cops? What rule should they be taught for violent attacks on themselves?

HOLY FUCK here we go again.

APPROACH MATTERS,

He approached them with the training of fear the worst(I have heard cops say countless times that "no call is simple" which means you assume the worst, even before you see the suspect. You dont even assume a simple traffic ticket will be that simple.

What the heck are you trying to say with this? That cops shouldn't be mentally prepared to act quickly? That they should always assume that everybody loves them and just wants to give them a big fat kiss? I'm sure that Michael Bown greeted the cop with a "good afternoon officer" to start the interaction. That is soo likely, I'm sure there wasn't any reason for the officer to suspect that the guy was a belligerent asshole.. But of course if you are a thug with no empathy for other people and their property, and you attack a cop that might be there to arrest you, then we should love you and have empathy for you because you are black and society has sometimes been unfair to other black men.

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: These guys didn't respond the way he wanted upon first verbal contact. Then the second part of his training kicks in. DOMINATE TO GET CONTROL AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

Really, he doesn't have to access the situation for a crime first?
What good are Barney Fife type policemen that can't dominate and arrest someone? Would you hire a cop who can't dominate and overcome resistance to arrest someone?

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Which is consistent with what his friend said, "it was sudden" which means neither kid had any time to think about what was going on. Which means the COP jumped them.

"Jumped" him from inside the car? Wow that is some kind of supercop!
Why did the cop pick out a huge 6'4" 300 lb black man to "Jump"?
Could he not find a smaller black man to "Jump?"
Your belief in the ridiculous claims of those first storytellers is telling.
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/...oting.html
Dorian Johnson - accomplice of Brown:

1. cop curses at them to get out of road.
2. cop tries to open door and hits brown.
3. cop grabs Brown by the neck through the window of squad car and shoot brown.
4. Brown breaks free and runs away from cop.
5. Cop exits vehicle and shoots several shots at a fleeing brown.
6. Brown stops and turns around with his hands in the air.
7. Policeman fires several more shots dropping and killing Brown.

Tiffany Mitchell:

1. Brown was pushing and struggling to get away from cop holding him inside through the car window.
2. A shot fired and Brown ran down the street away from the cop.
3. cop shoots at fleeing Brown and she sees Brown flinch as he is hit from the rear.
4. Brown stops running and raises his hands in surrender but the cop shoots him with his hands in the air until he falls to the ground.

Piaget Crenshaw:

1. saw Brown running away from cop.
2. Brown stops and raises arm to show compliance and no weapons, turns toward the cop.
3. cop shoots twice more and kills him.

Emmanuel Freeman:

1. Brown was shot in a hail of bullets while running away.

Anonymous store visitor:

1. heard gunshot, saw Brown staggering away.
2. Brown turned with hands up screaming "ok ok"
3. cop shoots Brown six or seven times.

Overheard Youtube video witness:
1. Brown went to police vehicle.
2. Brown ran from police vehicle.
3. Cop exits vehicle and follows Brown.
4. Brown stops and runs at cop.
5. Cop shoots Brown.

COP's friend Josie (Claimed from cop):

1. Cop orders Brown and friend to curb.
2. Cop sees cigars and connects them to the robbery.
3. Cop backs up and tries to get out of car but Michael slams the door on him.
4. cop opens door but Michael rushes him and attacks him inside the vehicle.
5. Michael punches the cop and grabs for the cop's gun.
6. Cop pushes the gun away from pointing at his hip when the gun goes off inside the car.
7. Micheal runs and gets about 35 feet away when cop gets up and yells "freeze!"
8. Michael taunts the cop.
9. Michael rushes the cop.
10. cop fires at the approaching Michael Brown.
11. Cop drops him with shot that hit the top of his head as brown fell within two or three feet of the cop.
http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/witnesses-s...-shooting/

What the preliminary autopsy evidence says:

1. four arm shots, all easily survivable all from forward entry.
2. two head shots, one superficial through the brow and cheek, one kill shot to the top of the head. Both head shots were from a bent forward direction.
3. no impacts from the rear.

The Autopsy evidence brands Johnson, Mitchell, Crenshaw, Freeman, and the store visitor as liars as Brown was not shot from the rear while running away, and Brown was not shot in the body to match the dropping from a standing position, as described with his hands up. Both of the head shots were in a position of a charging man.
http://toonclips.com/600/5745.jpg

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: AND AGAIN Brown broke the cop's grip and RAN AWAY. Now why would he stop running if he had not been hit once while running? If I got hit by a bullet I would stop what I am doing. He got it in the arm at least once running away. Brown at that point decided to give up.

Except that all of the bullets to the arms entered from the front according to the released autopsy information, so unless you want to claim "magic bullets," all of the witnesses were liars with an ulterior motive to smear the white cop in a show of black community racism.

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: WHICH IS CONSISTENT with what not only his friend said but other witnesses said "PUT HIS HANDS IN THE AIR" And when facing him with his hands up TWO OF THE SHOTS HIT HIM IN THE HEAD.

The cop couldn't have shot 6'4" Brown twice from the top of his head from 35 feet away. Can't be true. Your witness is lying and trying to racially smear a white cop.

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Now I believe the witnesses. So out of all the shots the two that hit him in the head would mean the one in the eye had to be the first to the head, causing him to be dropped to be hit in the top of the head while falling.

Except of course that this shot went from eyebrow down through cheek which couldn't happen if he were standing upright.

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Otherwise if it is the "rushed me" story, the first bullet would have to be to the top of the head with his head leaning forward. Are you going to have me believe that after being hit in the top of the head he had the power to lift his head and get hit in the eye?

Nope. It goes arm, arm, arm. arm, eyebrow, top of head. Drop dead. Completely consistent with the cop's story and the overheard youtube witness' story.

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Now cops are also trained to STOP using force when needed. When a guy puts his hands up YOU DO NOT CONTINUE SHOOTING THEM!

He did stop, only the last bullet dropped him.

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: You keep making it about the struggle between Brown and the cop. THAT DOES NOT MEAN SHIT TO ME. When someone is giving up you do not continue shooting them.

There is no evidence that he tried to give up, only the words of proven liars that obviously have a racist agenda.

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Otherwise you are asking me to believe the witnesses are lying. Why is it the witnesses are lying? Because they are black?

NO! Not because they are black but because they are racists! Not all blacks believe your beloved witnesses. Not all blacks are racist and are willing to lie to smear white people.

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Now whose lying? Several people who didn't know either kid? Or a cop who has buddies who can help him figure out a story that "might work".

Cops do sometimes lie and cover for their own, sure, but the evidence from the Family's ME has corroborated with the cop's story so that a "cover-up" isn't needed.

(August 20, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: And explain to me why right after it happened no one was allowed to lend immediate aid to Brown, or that his body sat on that street for 4 hours?

There isn't any helping of a guy that has just been "pithed" by a bullet to the brain. He laid there for a critical crime scene investigation.

Yep those black witnesses were lying only the white cop was telling the truth.

(August 20, 2014 at 9:44 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Yep those black witnesses were lying only the white cop was telling the truth.

And the black witness in the video background who didn't know he was being recorded.

oopsie.. But I guess you'd call him an "uncle Tom" wouldn't you?..

(August 20, 2014 at 10:30 pm)Brakeman Wrote:

(August 20, 2014 at 9:44 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Yep those black witnesses were lying only the white cop was telling the truth.

And the black witness in the video background who didn't know he was being recorded.

oopsie.. But I guess you'd call him an "uncle Tom" wouldn't you?..

Huh?

Who? You will not find one witness outside the cop who said Brown turned around and rushed him. All of them said the officer chased him, fired while his back was turned, and continued to fire after he turned around trying to give up.

This cop got pissed off because they didn't do what he wanted immediately. Cops are trained to fear the worst, and trained to dominate. Whatever happened at the car did not mean the cop had the right to shoot him with his back to the cop or shoot him when he was trying to give up.

(August 16, 2014 at 7:35 pm)Brakeman Wrote: You say that black dropout rates are caused by poverty, but if poverty is caused by high black dropout rates, then it is a circular argument.
For the circular system to exist, a third force must be in place, why are so many blacks poor and dropping out of school?

No, it's a vicious cycle, which is entirely different from begging the question. And when multiple variables are present in a dynamic, it sometimes happens that a pair of them become mutually reinforcing, minimizing or obviating the original impetus into the new status quo.

The idea that a complex social phenomenon could have one cause is overly simplistic and for that reason, likely not very useful. Variables in any equation interact.

Quote: AND MOST IMPORTANT, is a ban on monopolies of power, be they political, religious or business, public or private.

Yet wouldn't the power required to enforce this policy inevitably turn into... a monopoly?

(August 22, 2014 at 2:51 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(August 20, 2014 at 10:30 pm)Brakeman Wrote: And the black witness in the video background who didn't know he was being recorded.

oopsie.. But I guess you'd call him an "uncle Tom" wouldn't you?..

Huh?

Who? You will not find one witness outside the cop who said Brown turned around and rushed him. All of them said the officer chased him, fired while his back was turned, and continued to fire after he turned around trying to give up.

This cop got pissed off because they didn't do what he wanted immediately. Cops are trained to fear the worst, and trained to dominate. Whatever happened at the car did not mean the cop had the right to shoot him with his back to the cop or shoot him when he was trying to give up.

You're stubbornly wrong. The candid witness on the youtube video did in fact describe Michael brown rushing the cop with his gun already drawn.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ilson.html

Quote:The alleged witness tells the man that Brown apparently had a confrontation with Wilson near to or in his vehicle and ran away.

'Then the next thing I know he doubled back towards him cus (sic) the police had his gun drawn already on him,' according to blog, Conservative Tree House.

The witness then contradicts the now crucial narrative of the how the tragic events unfolded last Saturday.
Instead of Brown being fired on while his hands were raised in surrender, the witness claims that Brown was moving towards the officer when he was shot.

While this version of events does not match most of the eyewitness accounts, it does seem to tally up in a small part with the account of what occurred given by a friend of Wilson.

When are you going to admit you were wrong?

---

(August 22, 2014 at 4:14 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(August 16, 2014 at 7:35 pm)Brakeman Wrote: You say that black dropout rates are caused by poverty, but if poverty is caused by high black dropout rates, then it is a circular argument.
For the circular system to exist, a third force must be in place, why are so many blacks poor and dropping out of school?

No, it's a vicious cycle, which is entirely different from begging the question. And when multiple variables are present in a dynamic, it sometimes happens that a pair of them become mutually reinforcing, minimizing or obviating the original impetus into the new status quo.

The idea that a complex social phenomenon could have one cause is overly simplistic and for that reason, likely not very useful. Variables in any equation interact.

Good grief! I was referring to additional causes, a "third" cause needed to exist, doesn't imply that there isn't a fourth or a fifth. Instead of trying to find philosophical faults, how about if you actually try to answer the question posed, "What are the causes of modern black poverty? What are the additional causes beyond the circular "high dropout rates - poverty?"

I don't think the police should have the authority to go round killing people like that but I'm not sorry the guy was shot and killed, he looks like the kind of guy who would be a neighbor from hell.
I don't see how the word robbery is bullshit, it just means taking something by force or threatening behavior. I'm not a lawyer but surely shoplifting is something different, where there's no aggression and the the goods are taken unlawfully either by stealth or by speed (grabbing and running).

I live in England and I think the police sometimes act tyrannical over here so in America I've heard it's much worse, but on the other hand I don't think the word robbery is bullshit and this is one of those cases where I'm not sorry the guy was shot dead, he looked like a gangster or wanna be gangster and a bully.
And NOT just because he was black, I would say the same thing if he was a white 6ft 4inch guy pushing people around in a shop, stealing things, and after seeing photos of him holding up gang signs.

I always think before people give sympathy to someone like this they should imagine what it would be like to live next door to them, or be a store owner in their neighborhood.

If we give cops in a deadly use of force IN ANY CASE the benefit of the doubt, you are still dealing with unacceptable conditions that lead to that.

1. ECONOMICS,


2. Cops are still trained to assume the worst and that no call is simple or safe. Cops are still trained to dominate to keep the situation under control.

If you do not address long term conditions you will not get law enforcement to the point where they do not have to fear the worst.