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**Aractus** · October 23, 2014 at 8:11 pm

(October 23, 2014 at 4:52 pm)Christian Wrote: That non-Christians think that the Old Testament is a Christian text and true believers of Christ are somehow bound to it by letter.

Well that's because it is a Christian text (last time I checked the Bible still included 39 OT books).

Quote:OT was a Jew law and does not apply to Christ believers anymore.

So what? You still believe in the moral authority of the OT. I've listened to Christian priests try to explain this time and time again.

Jehovah had the opportunity to shape his chosen society however he wanted, and he chose to implement things like: divorce but only for men, inheritance, but only for sons, punishments for rape victims as well as the perpetrators, considering the vows of women to be less authoritative than that of men (Numbers 30), and giving these laws for warfare:

“When you go out to war against your enemies, and see horses and chariots and an army larger than your own, you shall not be afraid of them, for the Lord your God is with you, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt. And when you draw near to the battle, the priest shall come forward and speak to the people and shall say to them, ‘Hear, O Israel, today you are drawing near for battle against your enemies: let not your heart faint. Do not fear or panic or be in dread of them, for the Lord your God is he who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory.’ Then the officers shall speak to the people, saying, ‘Is there any man who has built a new house and has not dedicated it? Let him go back to his house, lest he die in the battle and another man dedicate it. And is there any man who has planted a vineyard and has not enjoyed its fruit? Let him go back to his house, lest he die in the battle and another man enjoy its fruit. And is there any man who has betrothed a wife and has not taken her? Let him go back to his house, lest he die in the battle and another man take her.’ And the officers shall speak further to the people, and say, ‘Is there any man who is fearful and faint-hearted? Let him go back to his house, lest he make the heart of his fellows melt like his own.’ And when the officers have finished speaking to the people, then commanders shall be appointed at the head of the people.

“When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if it responds to you peaceably and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labour for you and shall serve you. But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. And when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here. But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded, that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the Lord your God.

“When you besiege a city for a long time, making war against it in order to take it, you shall not destroy its trees by wielding an axe against them. You may eat from them, but you shall not cut them down. Are the trees in the field human, that they should be besieged by you? Only the trees that you know are not trees for food you may destroy and cut down, that you may build siege works against the city that makes war with you, until it falls.

Deuteronomy 20

So this is what God wants when his people go to war:

1. If the city surrenders, all its inhabitants are to be enslaved and made to do forced labour.
2. The women are to be taken as plunder. That is, they will become concubines (sex slaves) for God's people.

Simon Moon · (This post was last modified: October 23, 2014 at 8:13 pm by Simon Moon.)

(October 23, 2014 at 8:10 pm)Christian Wrote:
(October 23, 2014 at 8:08 pm)Beccs Wrote: We've found Troy.

There's evidence of battles being fought there.

We have evidence that a number of people mentioned actually existed, particularly Agamemnon.

Since this is much of the evidence criteria Christians use to claim the veracity of the bible, then we can logically use it to verify the accuracy of the Odyssey

Please don't equate myths with truth. Lord Jesus Christ is the truth.

Non Sequitur.

Unsupported assertion.

You don't do this logic thing very well, do you?

**The Valkyrie** · October 23, 2014 at 8:13 pm

(October 23, 2014 at 8:10 pm)Christian Wrote:
(October 23, 2014 at 8:08 pm)Beccs Wrote: We've found Troy.

There's evidence of battles being fought there.

We have evidence that a number of people mentioned actually existed, particularly Agamemnon.

Since this is much of the evidence criteria Christians use to claim the veracity of the bible, then we can logically use it to verify the accuracy of the Odyssey

Please don't equate myths with truth. Lord Jesus Christ is the truth.

One person's myth is another person's truth.

The Odyssey is mythology.

So is the bible.

Again, as I've stated and Simon Moon has stated, there is NO contemporary evidence for the life of this person you call Jesus. Even the accounts written in the bible contradict each other.

~~Christian~~ · October 23, 2014 at 8:18 pm

Ok, prove that the Bible is not true! As you Atheists like to say, demonstrations please!

DramaQueen · October 23, 2014 at 8:23 pm

The end of the earth doesn't exist and snakes don't eat dust are good enough

**The Valkyrie** · October 23, 2014 at 8:26 pm

Ah, trying to reverse burden of proof.

Exodus did not happen. There's no evidence at all of more than a handful of Hebrew slaves in Egypt. No evidence of the parting of the Red Sea (which some apologists are now saying was the Reed Sea), and no evidence for several hundred thousand people wandering the Sinai for decades (couldn't god get them there in a few months? What a terrible guide.)

Global flood: No evidence it ever happened. There's evidence for regional floods, which still occur, but none for a global event. Also, why are animals only known to the peoples of the region mentioned in the account of Noah's Ark (likely based on the Epic of Gilgamesh, btw), and not, say, animals from southern Africa, North America, etc.?

One chapter of Genesis says Eve was the first woman. Another mentions Lilith, Adam's first wife. The contradictions in the book are just incredible.

Bad Wolf · (This post was last modified: October 23, 2014 at 8:32 pm by Bad Wolf.)

(October 23, 2014 at 6:08 pm)Christian Wrote:
(October 23, 2014 at 6:05 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: How exactly is revealing his existence, violation of free will. The devil and all those angels knew with complete certainty that god existed, and yet they rebelled against him, something i'm assuming he didn't want them to do. Please explain that.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.
(Proverbs 25:2, NIV)

There's a sense in which mysteries bring glory to God and solving them bring glory to us. It's no accident that so many people enjoy puzzles and riddles or exploration and experimentation, it's just another way in which we reflect the God whose image we are made in.

You didn't answer me at all. Try again.

(October 23, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Christian Wrote: Josepehus was born 3 - 5 years after Jesus was crucified so Yes I would call him a historian of Jesus time. Really if you cannot accept the 1st and second century historians accounts of Jesus then you really have no business believing that any figure of history existed. We have the 27 books in the New Testament and the 19 extra biblical accounts both friend and foe thought Jesus was real so why we should believe the 21st century atheist who says otherwise?

The historical accounts of the life of jesus christ, would be the equivelent of the newspapers only now reporting the first ever moon landing.

~~Christian~~ · (This post was last modified: October 23, 2014 at 8:56 pm by Christian.)

You guys just don't get it, do you?
I have offered countless proofs and all you can do is ridicule me and my Lord?

**The Valkyrie** · October 23, 2014 at 8:56 pm

I haven't ridiculed.

And you've offered no evidence.

Claims and "it says so in the bible" are not evidence.

SteelCurtain · October 23, 2014 at 9:09 pm

(October 23, 2014 at 8:55 pm)Christian Wrote: You guys just don't get it, do you?

We get it just fine. You are not well versed in the art of logic and are clearly outclassed here, and your presuppositions drive your sense of truth to the point that it blinds you to any contradictions in your own story.

(October 23, 2014 at 8:55 pm)Christian Wrote: I have offered countless proofs and all you can do is ridicule me and my Lord?

I can easily count how many 'proofs' you've given. Zero. Didn't take a lot of time. You clearly do not know what that word means.

A bit of advice: don't make up your own definitions of words, then insist that everyone else use your own, faulty definition. Discussions do not work like that. I suggest you re-read the posts so far. Not only has every single one of your assertions been parried with ease, but you have not even taken the time to respond appropriately to some of the more difficult/apropos questions/counterarguments proposed to you.

Here.

and

Here.

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