LOL, I like that last bit, about how one might explain moral truths. I can tll we're getting closer to that moneyshot. It's fairly simple to explain the existence of moral absolutes. There exists (in this world at least) a very strange sort of ape that likes to construct and then espouse them. Been going on for awhile actually. I'm surprised you've missed them.

(October 31, 2014 at 12:17 am)TRJF Wrote: Maybe you're not lying inasmuch as you are, in fact, compiling statistics, but I think it is disingenuous to post a poll asking for an opinion (with a somewhat academic, neutral-sounding description) and then to start arguing loudly against one of your options.

And I was told in the other thread that it was wrong to post this and not interact... so there ya go lol

There is nothing wrong with testing our view points, Im sure no one here is afraid to look into what they consider the dark side of religion. We are going the same here...

Either moral absolutes and universal truths exist or rape and child abuse is sometimes good... you cant have it both ways, ONE has to be true. I'm simply interested as to HOW the atheist justifies rape as "sometimes good".

(October 31, 2014 at 12:24 am)TRJF Wrote: And this, I believe, is the trouble with your argument: None of what you've said provides any "evidence" of anything, because your arguments are just as valid if you replace the word "wrong" with the word "right." Within your logical framework, rape could just as easily be a universal good; that would just mean 1) the source of universal morality is a dick and 2) we're collectively mistaken in our "intuition" or "knowledge" or whatever that rape is generally wrong.

The point I'm trying to make is this: everything you've said so far is DESCRIPTIVE of an unprovable position, but there's a massive ontological gap between describing the consequences of your logical assumptions/axioms and the real world.

WHO are you addressing?

(October 31, 2014 at 12:23 am)Tsun Tsu Wrote: And do you agree with me there is never a time that it is good? And if you agree with me, then you do realize you are now believing in a moral absolute.

Utter bunk. I can agree that rape in any context strikes me as repulsive without agreeing that there are moral absolutes. It is absolutely repulsive to me - you know, except when the wife and I are playing pretend. But that is a fact about me and my dispositions, not a fact about the universe.

(October 31, 2014 at 12:26 am)Tsun Tsu Wrote: Either moral absolutes and universal truths exist or rape and child abuse is sometimes good... you cant have it both ways, ONE has to be true.

What if the "moral absolute" was that rape and child abuse is sometimes good? Then we'd have it both ways. Try harder. You've presented a false dilemma, and in the process you've littered the boards with assorted bullshit that can only have arisen out of ignorance. I suppose I can add this to your list of achievements, so - whats the score? You aren't a kiddie diddler but you are a troll? Not quite a wash, I guess, but if I were you...I'd aim higher.

OP, your poll is missing the I don't know option.

In your specific question of is rape always immoral, many people here feel very uncomfortable coming up with a scenerio where rape would be the moral thing to do. For good reason. I am part of that crowd. So instead, I present moral delima's to highlight how what is moral can be very fuzzy. LINK. The link doesn't include a rape scenerio, but such a scenerio can be created. I doubt anyone here is willing to come up with one.

(October 31, 2014 at 12:26 am)Rhythm Wrote: LOL, I like that last bit, about how one might explain moral truths. I can tll we're getting closer to that moneyshot. It's fairly simple to explain the existence of moral absolutes. There exists (in this world at least) a very strange sort of ape that likes to construct and then espouse them. Been going on for awhile actually. I'm surprised you've missed them.

So your view is that rape is not universally and absolutely ALWAYS wrong despite what the human race may think or say, and that it is completely dependent upon the number of people believing it to be wrong.... Do you think the same is true with child rape? Or is child rape ALWAYS wrong despite what anyone may think or how many disagree?

He's definitely got a script and little ear for nuance.

(October 31, 2014 at 12:29 am)Surgenator Wrote: OP, your poll is missing the I don't know option.

In your specific question of is rape always immoral, many people here feel very uncomfortable coming up with a scenerio where rape would be the moral thing to do. For good reason. I am part of that crowd. So instead, I present moral delima's to highlight how what is moral can be very fuzzy. LINK. The link doesn't include a rape scenerio, but such a scenerio can be created. I doubt anyone here is willing to come up with one.

Hi and thanks for writing!
Im truly glad you bring up how this may "feel". I think its honest to ask yourself why you "feel" this? Of course it is uncomfortable trying to come up with a way to justify rape and pedophilia. There isn't a justification, which is exactly why I am compiling this. It is also a tool to help the atheist to look past a grudging bias and have an honest look at "universal and absolute morality"... If it exists, it came from something other than matter and electrical impulse.

Its hard to do because not only id there no justification, but we have a real and living "conscience" that rises up to protect these innocents, and is repulsed by these ideas... and this too goes beyond chemical reaction and matter.

WE MUST accept the fact that either universal laws are absolute and always true, or we have to justify rape and child abuse as being sometimes actually good... and we just cant do that.

The specifics of my views on the matter are irrelevant - and for the same reasons this third or fourth time as they were for the first (you can't handle it can you...you just keep fishing...lol).

We, have to make no such choice as we do not find ourselves in any such situation. You, of course, are free to do so as you choose. Moral and intellectual midgetry is your right (and it couldn't be taken from you even if someone cared to try).