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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 1:39 pm
Uhh.. do you have an actual source for that, or should we be looking up your rectum?
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.
Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.
Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.
Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.
Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 1:40 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 1:36 pm)Heywood Wrote: Right now black holes are colder than the surrounding space. There will come a time when black holes are warmer than the surrounding space. It conceivable that one day life will huddle around black holes for warmth. Black holes allow nothing to escape. Any 'warmth' would be a result of accelerating matter generating too much radiation to allow life.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 1:41 pm
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2014 at 1:42 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Why would life need warmth?
(once we start yammering about emergent complexity and tuning the field gets very....very wide)
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 1:43 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 1:40 pm)IATIA Wrote: (November 30, 2014 at 1:36 pm)Heywood Wrote: Right now black holes are colder than the surrounding space. There will come a time when black holes are warmer than the surrounding space. It conceivable that one day life will huddle around black holes for warmth. Black holes allow nothing to escape. Any 'warmth' would be a result of accelerating matter generating too much radiation to allow life.
Negative IATIA...black holes radiate Hawking's radiation.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 1:44 pm
Any time I'm confronted with this 'fine tuned for life' card, I'm reminded of this exchange from the outstanding 2008 TV play God On Trial:
Quote:Jacques (François Guétary): How many stars are there in the Universe, do you think? Excuse me, but, uh, before... (chuckles softly) ...before I died, I was a physicist in Paris. There are one hundred thousand million stars in our Galaxy. Just in our Galaxy. And did God make all those stars?
Schmidt (Stephen Dillane): Most certainly. The prophet Amos tells us...
Jacques: What for?
Schmidt: Excuse me?
Jacques: He made one hundred thousand million stars in our Galaxy locally. How many of them have planets, we don't know. And yet, his whole attention is focused on one little planet right down on the edge of an outer spiral. And not even with the whole planet, no. Just with the Jews. This man, who made one hundred thousand million stars, signed a contract with the Jews. Just the Jews. And not even all of the Jews. No, no, no, because Jews like me don't count. So tell me this. If he loved the Jews so much, why did he make anything else? Why didn't he fill the Universe with Jews instead of stars? What's the point?
Schmidt: We don't know the point. It seems amazing to me, too, that in the whole universe, he should choose us.
Jacques: It's not amazing! It's mad! It's simply incorrect! Newborn babies think they are the centre of the Universe. They think they make milk by sucking. They think the world vanishes when they close their eyes. They are... they are wrong. In the Middle Ages, men thought the Sun went round the Earth. They... they were wrong. It's an illusion caused by where you happen to be standing at the time. And it's the same with God. The same! So think. Please, just think!
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 1:46 pm
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2014 at 1:49 pm by Heywood.)
(November 30, 2014 at 1:41 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Why would life need warmth?
(once we start yammering about emergent complexity and tuning the field gets very....very wide)
You need differences in temperature to do work. Study the work of Nicolas Léonard Sadi Carnot.....who some claim is the father of thermodynamics.
(November 30, 2014 at 1:39 pm)oukoida Wrote: Uhh.. do you have an actual source for that, or should we be looking up your rectum?
Physic engines are pretty easy for us and we have simulated many different coherent universes. Most coherent models of universes result in nothing much happening at all. The parameters of our universe allow for sustained emergent complexity. This is a fact and it is not in dispute.
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 1:50 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 1:06 pm)oukoida Wrote: ...wouldn't it be much like a Minecraft world? Flat, infinite, with (potentially) infinite resources and without many of the dangers and complexities of the real world? Especially considering that the creator God is proposed (at least by the major monotheistic religions) as an omnipotent being, why would he create a universe where most of the space is empty and/or unsuitable for human life?
If he wanted a huge sandbox to make us humans live and to test us, why not make the whole of the universe like that? After all, he can pop things into existence, pretty much like a computer does when it generates a Minecraft world.
So, the question is: is Notch more intelligent a designer than Yahweh/Allah/Jehovah?
Or is Notch just copying God's design?
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 2:02 pm
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2014 at 2:07 pm by Smaug.)
I'd say this question is way too antropomorphic and has a wrong premise in it. It's not the universe that is 'tuned', it's life that appears in favourable conditions and adapts to them. But even so it could be figuratively said that our universe is perfectly 'tuned' for life as we know it since it has such a combination of fundamental parameters that allow such life as ours to exist. I've placed 'tuned' into apostrophs because it doesn't mean that the universe was actually created or tuned by someone. In fact, even such favourable parameters do not strictly guarantee that life comes into existance at all. And according to the Weak Anthropic Principle there could potentially be other universes that are incapable of supporting life as we know it or incapable of supporting life at all (since there could even be no stable atoms for example).
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 2:03 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 1:46 pm)Heywood Wrote: (November 30, 2014 at 1:39 pm)oukoida Wrote: Uhh.. do you have an actual source for that, or should we be looking up your rectum?
Physic engines are pretty easy for us and we have simulated many different coherent universes. Most coherent models of universes result in nothing much happening at all. The parameters of our universe allow for sustained emergent complexity. This is a fact and it is not in dispute.
Still no source.
Anyway, even the fact that most coherent models of universes result in nothing much happening at all does not imply that ours is 'fine tuned' for pretty much anything. If anything, it only proves that emergent complexity has certain mathematical requirements which most current mathematical models are too simple to fulfill.
Good evidence for fine tuning would be evidence of the tuner, now wouldn't it?
C4RM5 Wrote:Or is Notch just copying God's design?
More likely that Notch is improving on God's design, seeing as how a Minecraft world is much, much more hospitable and fine-tuned for the life of its inhabitants than ours.
Which wouldn't really be good for your picture of God, eh?
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.
Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.
Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.
Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.
Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
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RE: If the universe was fine tuned for our life...
November 30, 2014 at 2:04 pm
(November 30, 2014 at 1:43 pm)Heywood Wrote: Negative IATIA...black holes radiate Hawking's radiation.
The holes themselves don't radiate it. Particle pairs appear in the vicinity of the event horizon, close enough that one of the pair is pulled across it while the survivor escapes into the Universe. The black hole loses one particle of mass and an outside observer would 'see' the hole apparently radiate one particle. The effect is precisely the same as if the black hole itself was emitting radiation, but the cause is quite different and no physical laws are violated.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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