(December 17, 2014 at 3:45 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Alex, many religions are fairly tribalistic or deeply patriarchal to say the least. They humiliate and bully anyone different. I feel my comparison to organized religion is a fair one.

For now, I too feel speaking up is all I can do. I hope that has a slight impact.

Misdiagnosing the ailment can make treatment difficult. Tribalism and religion aren't necessarily connected and are sometimes at odds. It depends on the tribe and the religion. I think you'd have a different experience with a tribe of Jains or Quakers. It's the tribalism that tends to co-opt religion, and certain religions that attract converts with a tribal mindset, not relgions that walk into a region that's open and democratic and modern and somehow turn them into nationalistic fundamentalists.

A recent study found that 15% of atheists are anti-theistic, but interviews with Dawkins and Harris and online comments would lead you to think the percentage is much higher, wouldn't it?

The real trend is that atheists in America are becoming more open and honest about their atheism, and that kind of change is always led by the best at getting attention, and they tend to be the loud and angry one. As the trend continues, more and more regualr folks start speaking up too, and the perceived face of the demographic changes even though there's little actual change in the opinions of most of the people who make it up.

Yeah, we just need to keep coming out as good as we can, although for me currently living in western Europe it's a more than trivial undertaking. Coming out atheist in Germany is a bit like that scene in Jurassic Park

Yeah, in England I face none of the persecution or the need to "come out", I just try and support people in other countries where I know it is much harder.

(December 17, 2014 at 4:02 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Ok. I change that to most atheists I've met.

Most atheists you've met and were aware that they were atheists.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: There is enough evidence for their misogyny online. I just didn't want to quote other bloggers who you might already have read.

Many people behave badly on the internet. You haven't established that this bad behavior is more prevalent among atheists than theists. If it isn't, you're talking about the demographic of humans who are misoginists, not the demograhpic of atheists.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Kinda of what I'm trying to get at. Should pure atheism be necessarily followed up by a few humanistic principles?

That would require for atheism to be organized wouldn't it, and atheism is one opinion on one topic. It doesn't sound like something to base an organization on to me. I say this as the founder of a successful freethought organization in Columbia, SC.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Pure atheism itself doesn't actually ensure any less madness.

That's true. It's just one specific opinion, not a worldview or philosophy in itself.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Firstly, I'm not saying non belief in itself needs a structure. But non belief is not sufficient.

Does anyone say it is? Personally I think atheism will virtually disappear as a topic when enough people are educated about it that they don't assume they don't need to know anything else about you if all they know is that you're an atheist. Being a visible atheist is an important way to help people realize atheists are diverse.

(December 17, 2014 at 12:09 pm)robvalue Wrote: Yeah, in England I face none of the persecution or the need to "come out", I just try and support people in other countries where I know it is much harder.

Funny story, I mentioned elsewhere that I sing in a choir which does a lot of sacred works and most of the members are quite catholic. One day we did a concert during a catholic service and a friend standing next to me asked - so, are you interested or active in church and all that? - and I replied - lord no, I'm the token heathen in this here choir. Hilarity ensued.

(December 17, 2014 at 10:22 am)SoFarEast Wrote:

(December 17, 2014 at 9:51 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: We just say 'that particular atheist community is not somewhere I'd like to participate', and find somewhere else to participate.

Well yes, I could always just go somewhere else. And that's what I have done for now. But it doesn't make the problem go away, and I'm hoping something can be done about it.

The obvious strategy would be to speak up when and where you see it, rather than make generalizations about "most atheists" and making incoherent comparisons to cults.

I've been involved in Internet atheist communities for sixteen years. My own personal experience is that atheists are no more likely than theists to be sexist bigots. This is borne out by my experiences in real life with atheists.

And when you look at thing like the allegations against Dawkins, Myers and other atheists were vigorous in their pushback against rape and for equal treatment of women.

I think the thing you're overlooking is that in-group/out-group behavior patterns are deeply wired into humans, and are often reinforced by upbringing. I'd like to see some firm data showing "most" atheists do this or that. I'd also like to see exactly what you mean by "cultish" behavior, because atheism as a movement is nowhere near that centralized, organized, or powerful enough to enforce teachings upon followers.

I think you're making an overbroad generalization, and ignoring the deeper roots of misogyny and homophobia.

(December 17, 2014 at 11:30 am)Alex K Wrote: I don't want to be top Watsocentric, but it's one prominent example I have in the back of my head
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/d...reats.html

http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012...e-for-now/

Guy does have a cult following, so when he says some stupid ass shit like this his followers are going to think it is alright. He's probably responsible for some of the gender issues in the atheist community, but really it is not something that only exists in one specific group of people.

(December 17, 2014 at 12:13 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Personally I think atheism will virtually disappear as a topic when enough people are educated about it that they don't assume they don't need to know anything else about you if all they know is that you're an atheist. Being a visible atheist is an important way to help people realize atheists are diverse.

You may be right, and I wouldn't shed a tear if it did. Some people, like PZ Myers, are desperately trying to tie the notion of atheism itself with social justice goals, and in principle it's laudable I guess, but it feels a bit forced to many people - I suppose you are right and in the end, the atheism will play a minor role. As long as secularism and social justice are still on the table, I'm absolutely ok with that.

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(December 17, 2014 at 12:18 pm)Elskidor Wrote: Guy does have a cult following, so when he says some stupid ass shit like this his followers are going to think it is alright. He's probably responsible for some of the gender issues in the atheist community, but really it is not something that only exists in one specific group of people.

Correct, it's not. But just a few years ago I had this naive notion that people who associate with atheism, science, skepticism are above that because rationality etc. Turns out I was wrong, well... I still hope we manage to be "better than they" to the extent that we are organized at all.

I think Myers is a twat of the first order, as well as Dawkins. Greta Christina and others were bang-on when they pointed out that having these assholes as the public face of atheism keeps a lot of atheists quiet about their lack of belief.

(December 17, 2014 at 4:02 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Secondly, you seem to argue its more important to make sure Atheism is not defined as a religion, than making sure that Atheists dont behave exactly the way religious people do.

Most religous people are decent, hardworking, productive citizens. Most of the problems with religious people we have in the USA come from hardcore fundamentalist creationists. The majority of members of, for instance, Americans United for Separation of Church and State are religious. The liberal Quakers, United Church of Christ, Unitarian Universalists, and so on are on my side on pretty much everything but my opinion on the existence of God.