(January 3, 2015 at 10:47 am)Brian37 Wrote: There is no watchmaker in nature anymore than Poseidon is needed to cause hurricanes or Thor being required to cause lightening.

Maybe not a watchmaker, but it seems that evolutionary systems require intellects. None of you so far have been able to produce an example one evolutionary system whose details of origination we are privy too, that wasn't designed by an intellect or uses intellect as a selection component. I make this challenge over an over again and I get crickets....then someone tries to change the subject by making comments about Thor and lightening or that God is a lousy designer because the laryngeal nerve of giraffe is circuitous or some other red herring. These kinds of counter arguments have nothing to do with the claim I am making that it appears evolutionary systems require intellect.

(January 3, 2015 at 11:03 am)robvalue Wrote: If you "see design" it's because you want to see design. You're making claims about things no one can possibly know. Once you get out of our reality and look at it objectively, and have a chat with the bung-hole who made it, get back to me.

What we actually see is no evidence of design, and extremely good natural explanations.

Actually science does know. Life is not an invention of an inventor, it is a result of natural processes. Just like there is no moon god causing the tides.

I mean the universe as a whole. We don't know if it was created. We do know there is no good reason to assume it was.

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Watch maker gets you to deism, then what heywood? If we give you a creator, what do you do with it? All we know about it is it created our reality, and that's only because we have assumed that it did. It doesn't get you anywhere near Christianity or any other story telling. It doesn't even get you to "God", just some dweeb who can make a reality. Big deal.

I'm fine with saying there could be a creator. It's just he is irrelevant.

(January 3, 2015 at 11:11 am)robvalue Wrote: Watch maker gets you to deism, then what heywood? If we give you a creator, what do you do with it? All we know about it is it created our reality, and that's only because we have assumed that it did. It doesn't get you anywhere near Christianity or any other story telling.

Convincing people there is a God is my goal. Convincing people to believe a religion is not my goal. Why do you feel the need to move the goal post for me?

OK, I didn't know what your point was. I'm happy to say there may be a God, I just don't care if there is. So what do you think I should do differently if I thought there was one?

If you know how to contact him, I have some choice words.

(January 3, 2015 at 11:17 am)robvalue Wrote: OK, I didn't know what your point was. I'm happy to say there may be a God, I just don't care if there is. So what do you think I should do differently if I thought there was one?

If you know how to contact him, I have some choice words.

It not a situation that there could be an intelligent creator, the situation is observations of our world suggest the existence of an intelligent creator. If you believe in God you world view will change substantially. I can't tell you how it will change though. That is more of a personal journey.

(January 3, 2015 at 11:08 am)Heywood Wrote:

(January 3, 2015 at 10:47 am)Brian37 Wrote: There is no watchmaker in nature anymore than Poseidon is needed to cause hurricanes or Thor being required to cause lightening.

Maybe not a watchmaker, but it seems that evolutionary systems require intellects.

It seems that way only to you. Probably because you don't actually understand the mechanisms.

Quote:None of you so far have been able to produce an example one evolutionary system whose details of origination we are privy too, that wasn't designed by an intellect or uses intellect as a selection component.

Your self-serving definition is ridiculous.

Quote:I make this challenge over an over again and I get crickets....then someone tries to change the subject by making comments about Thor and lightening or that God is a lousy designer because the laryngeal nerve of giraffe is circuitous or some other red herring. These kinds of counter arguments have nothing to do with the claim I am making that it appears evolutionary systems require intellect.

No, you have created a silly request. No one here is fooled by your weasel-worded demand.

If I somehow knew for sure there was a God that created everything, my life wouldn't change one bit. I don't see why it should. That's just me, though. I can never find out anything about it, except to scowl at its terrible workmanship and assume it wasn't top of its class. Even if I could find out about it, it would just be interesting, nothing more.

I don't understand what is supposed to change. Now I know this is a giant fuck up rather than a natural process, so what?

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I'm not trying to be difficult, I just honestly wouldn't care.

(January 3, 2015 at 11:23 am)robvalue Wrote: If I somehow knew for sure there was a God that created everything, my life wouldn't change one bit. I don't see why it should. That's just me, though. I can never find out anything about it, except to scowl at its terrible workmanship and assume it wasn't top of its class. Even if I could find out about it, it would just be interesting, nothing more.

I don't understand what is supposed to change. Now I know this is a giant fuck up rather than a natural process, so what?

If you knew for sure there was a God would you continue to look down upon people who try to know and understand Him?

I would think their methods aren't very good and that they are wasting their time. Just as I do now. So no, nothing would change. You can't just find out about stuff like that by fiddling around on our planet. People are investigating their imagination, nothing more.

I don't look down on the religious, I just think they are woefully misguided.