(February 23, 2015 at 4:53 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(February 19, 2015 at 1:25 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: A penitant blames no one else for his condition, but rather condemns himself under God’s eternal wrath because he deserves it.

This is sickening about Christianity: it preaches self-loathing.

A penitent man taking responsibility for his crime(s) does not necessitate he is self-loathing.

You are driving 45mph in a 20mph school zone. A police officer pulls you over and writes you a ticket. The ticket is $150, 4 points off your license, and a mandatory appearance in court. On the day of the court appearance, you stand before the judge and say: "I know I broke the law, I'm sorry I did, and I take full responsibility for both my actions and I will fulfill the legal punishment for them." Is your statement one of self-loathing?

(February 24, 2015 at 11:29 am)orangebox21 Wrote:

(February 23, 2015 at 4:53 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: This is sickening about Christianity: it preaches self-loathing.

A penitent man taking responsibility for his crime(s) does not necessitate he is self-loathing.

You are driving 45mph in a 20mph school zone. A police officer pulls you over and writes you a ticket. The ticket is $150, 4 points off your license, and a mandatory appearance in court. On the day of the court appearance, you stand before the judge and say: "I know I broke the law, I'm sorry I did, and I take full responsibility for both my actions and I will fulfill the legal punishment for them." Is your statement one of self-loathing?

But if you consider yourself a helpless sinner who deserves eternal hell, then that's definitely self-loathing.

I suggest you think better of yourself. Nothing you do should offend a grand God so deeply to the point that you deserve to suffer for the rest of your existence after you die.

(February 24, 2015 at 11:38 am)Irrational Wrote: But if you consider yourself a helpless sinner who deserves eternal hell, then that's definitely self-loathing.

Why?

(February 24, 2015 at 11:38 am)Irrational Wrote: I suggest you think better of yourself. Nothing you do should offend a grand God so deeply to the point that you deserve to suffer for the rest of your existence after you die.

$150 and four points off my license is far too high a punishment for speeding through a school zone. After all no one was hurt.

(February 24, 2015 at 11:29 am)orangebox21 Wrote:

(February 23, 2015 at 4:53 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: This is sickening about Christianity: it preaches self-loathing.

A penitent man taking responsibility for his crime(s) does not necessitate he is self-loathing.

You are driving 45mph in a 20mph school zone. A police officer pulls you over and writes you a ticket. The ticket is $150, 4 points off your license, and a mandatory appearance in court. On the day of the court appearance, you stand before the judge and say: "I know I broke the law, I'm sorry I did, and I take full responsibility for both my actions and I will fulfill the legal punishment for them." Is your statement one of self-loathing?

Except humans cannot take full responsibility for being flawed. Christian doctrine asserts that man was made in God's image, by God. It follows that the responsibility is his as well.

Your analogy fails on a couple of different levels. For it to hold, the speeder must be compelled to speed, and unable to do anything else, because of his inherent makeup.

No, Christianity teaches men to hate themselves. Pathetic.

(February 24, 2015 at 11:54 am)orangebox21 Wrote:

(February 24, 2015 at 11:38 am)Irrational Wrote: But if you consider yourself a helpless sinner who deserves eternal hell, then that's definitely self-loathing.

Why?

The answer is right there in the quote.

Quote:

(February 24, 2015 at 11:38 am)Irrational Wrote: I suggest you think better of yourself. Nothing you do should offend a grand God so deeply to the point that you deserve to suffer for the rest of your existence after you die.

$150 and four points off my license is far too high a punishment for speeding through a school zone. After all no one was hurt.

Even if it may be a bit too excessive, it's nowhere close to punishing someone way more severely and for eternity for "crimes" not worse than speeding through a school zone.

But not sure why you think law made by man is supposed to be perfect that you have to appeal to it so much in order to defend your less perfect concept of divine justice.

(February 23, 2015 at 4:44 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Once saved, sin has no effect on a person going to heaven. It can have an effect on the reward a person receives once there.

So, the system can't be gamed because you can sin with impunity once saved? I mean, yeah, you don't get as good a reward in heaven, but it's still heaven.

(February 24, 2015 at 1:19 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Except humans cannot take full responsibility for being flawed. Christian doctrine asserts that man was made in God's image, by God. It follows that the responsibility is his as well.

Your analogy fails on a couple of different levels. For it to hold, the speeder must be compelled to speed, and unable to do anything else, because of his inherent makeup.

No, Christianity teaches men to hate themselves. Pathetic.

God is responsible for creating a man capable of choice, not of the choices man makes.

(February 24, 2015 at 4:08 pm)Irrational Wrote: The answer is right there in the quote.

I'm asking you to support your assertion.

(February 24, 2015 at 4:08 pm)Irrational Wrote: Even if it may be a bit too excessive, it's nowhere close to punishing someone way more severely and for eternity for "crimes" not worse than speeding through a school zone.

But not sure why you think law made by man is supposed to be perfect that you have to appeal to it so much in order to defend your less perfect concept of divine justice.

You're missing the point. A person who accepts responsibility for his/her actions is not necessarily a self-loathing one. Christianity teaches penance and personal responsibility, not self-loathing.

A person complaining about the penalty for a crime would not be penitent, accepting of personal responsibility, nor self-loathing.

(February 24, 2015 at 4:32 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:

(February 23, 2015 at 4:44 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Once saved, sin has no effect on a person going to heaven. It can have an effect on the reward a person receives once there.

So, the system can't be gamed because you can sin with impunity once saved? I mean, yeah, you don't get as good a reward in heaven, but it's still heaven.

We've all sinned Robby. In the past and in the future. The blood of Christ is sufficient payment for them all.

(February 24, 2015 at 5:50 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: God is responsible for creating a man capable of choice, not of the choices man makes.

Oh, ooh, free will.

When my son was learning to walk, he wanted sometimes to cross roads. I didn't let him do so by himself, because it was obviously dangerous.

What you're telling me is that your god, knowing how powerful Satan was, turned Adam and Eve loose in the Garden with no knowledge of the difference between good and evil, that he knew Satan was in the garden, and he didn't know that Eve would take the applebite?

I'm just a mere mortal, and I can foresee when a bad situation raises risk to unacceptable levels. Your god is alleged to be omnipotent, yet he couldn't know that man would not always choose wisely?

If I know of an incipient murder, and I do nothing to stop it though I can safely do so, have I behaved in a moral fashion?

I submit that your understanding of moral responsibility is uselessly shallow.

(February 24, 2015 at 5:50 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Christianity teaches penance and personal responsibility, not self-loathing.

Luke, in Chapter 14, verse 26, Wrote:If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ke%2014:26

Christianity inculcates self-loathing in humans.

(February 24, 2015 at 5:50 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:

(February 24, 2015 at 4:08 pm)Irrational Wrote: The answer is right there in the quote.

I'm asking you to support your assertion.

Then please read what was in that stuff you quoted.

How is someone who sees himself as a sinner worthy of eternal punishment not a self-loathing one? Do you have a unique definition of "self-loathing" or something?

You can't ignore what I said and then ask me to support my assertion as if I never did.

Quote:You're missing the point. A person who accepts responsibility for his/her actions is not necessarily a self-loathing one. Christianity teaches penance and personal responsibility, not self-loathing.

It also teaches that you are unclean and all your so-called righteous deeds are like filthy rags. That's encouraging self-loathing.

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(February 24, 2015 at 6:35 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(February 24, 2015 at 5:50 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: God is responsible for creating a man capable of choice, not of the choices man makes.

Oh, ooh, free will.

When my son was learning to walk, he wanted sometimes to cross roads. I didn't let him do so by himself, because it was obviously dangerous.

What you're telling me is that your god, knowing how powerful Satan was, turned Adam and Eve loose in the Garden with no knowledge of the difference between good and evil, that he knew Satan was in the garden, and he didn't know that Eve would take the applebite?

I'm just a mere mortal, and I can foresee when a bad situation raises risk to unacceptable levels. Your god is alleged to be omnipotent, yet he couldn't know that man would not always choose wisely?

If I know of an incipient murder, and I do nothing to stop it though I can safely do so, have I behaved in a moral fashion?

I submit that your understanding of moral responsibility is uselessly shallow.

(February 24, 2015 at 5:50 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Christianity teaches penance and personal responsibility, not self-loathing.

Luke, in Chapter 14, verse 26, Wrote:If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ke%2014:26

Christianity inculcates self-loathing in humans.

Exactly. The New Testament is rather clear in many passages that if you don't loathe yourself, you will not be saved.

Consider the parable of the humble tax collector and the proud Pharisee. The Pharisee saw himself as a good person but was not justified before God. The tax collector, on the other hand, saw himself as a sinner and was justified. So self-loathing is better than loving who you are in God's eyes.

You have to loathe your nature as a sinner in order to be saved ... is what the New Testament is saying.

(February 24, 2015 at 5:50 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:

(February 24, 2015 at 4:32 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So, the system can't be gamed because you can sin with impunity once saved? I mean, yeah, you don't get as good a reward in heaven, but it's still heaven.

We've all sinned Robby. In the past and in the future. The blood of Christ is sufficient payment for them all.

Well, under this paradigm, I take back what I said about the system being gamed. It wouldn't be necessary, as sin plays no role in punishment or reward once one is saved.

So I guess the winning play is "get saved quickly", and whatever happens after that is kosher.