(March 13, 2015 at 7:25 am)robvalue Wrote: Right! If Muslims were serious about it, they'd do a bit more detailed calculation and then strap themselves to something at an angle, so they are praying at the floor, through the earth and then on to Mecca. Or are prayers affacted by gravity and so will bend round?

Or...

It has nothing to do with correspondence with reality.
It is an emergent meme of a human sub-society which serves to keep that community united and working towards a common goal (generally world domination.) It is a successful strategy inasmuch as it has been shown to persist and expand in the recent past.

Hmm! Now we've pointed it out, I wonder which route they shall choose?

This is post is continuation of my previous post which I didn’t finish because I was becoming too tired. I believe this post will mean I have responded on everything there was to respond to. If not, I'd like to know.

(March 13, 2015 at 5:13 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Click the green arrow for a link to the previous post.

(March 12, 2015 at 5:34 pm)AtlasS2 Wrote: ( 36 ) But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time." page 6

( 24 ) [Allah] said, "Descend, being to one another enemies. And for you on the earth is a place of settlement and enjoyment for a time." page 153

People have always known entities fall so I see nothing miraculous in the verse. Saying that men can fall is nothing miraculous. The verses need to describe gravity in more detail for me to be conv. I could check the Tafsir for the verses you provided but I don’t think I need to.

I really don’t understand how the verses you have provided mention gravity. All they seem to be saying is that life is limited and that the Earth is a place of settlement, which of course it is. The Earth is where people live and in that sense the verse makes sense. I struggle to understand where gravity comes in.

I suppose my comment about the Crimean War was rather ignorant. The Ottomans were really only allies of convenience. I suppose, like Saudi Arabia. To be honest, I don’t think the Saudi establishment really likes my country. They only pretend so that they can get all that advanced technology. All that money that is spent on oil is recouped by selling advanced technology to the Saudis – particularly weaponry. I didn’t think there could be Sheikhs crazier than the Sheikh from the movie Salmon Fishing in the Yemen, but time again I have been proven wrong (it’s a great movie by the way).

In terms of Israel: Whenever there are enough believers they will try to working towards fulfilling prophecies in their religious texts in order to reassure believers. That’s why I laugh when people say that Arabs competing with each other to build ever taller buildings was predicted by Muhammad. It’s a rubbish prophecy because it’s something people can work towards and he never provided a timeframe for it.

And yes, I remember Vlad Dracul. He was a strange one, although I can't help but feel that some of the stories about him are exaggerated. History is what people say happened and this may not be what actually happened. The Sykes–Picot Agreement is one of history's more disturbing events and it is shameful how one country can carve up another. Know that I will denounce Imperialism wherever it rears its ugly head.

In regard to Venice, surely they benefited from having friendly relations with the Ottomans? Venice is not Rome and if you are good friends someone then they are more inclined to give you a better deal in trade. Venice, with it's love of economics, would have wanted to at least try to be friends with the Ottomans because their ships would have to pass through their seas to get the pepper, etc, from Arabia. Maybe they weren't that good friends but I think that they both benefited from the relationship that they had.

Most immigrants to my country are nice people. I happen to know a few and I am eternally grateful for the Kebab outlet near me. But there are some (insert rude words here). There are nasty people in every community, sure, but in particular I don’t like to see people out on streets who are promoting the vile ideology of Mr. Wahhab. There is too much money from Saudi Arabia in my country. I would hate to be taken back to the days of the Salaf.

Finally, I will not dispute what you have said about Greek views on the inside of the Earth. It doesn’t seem relevant to the discussion anyway. People believe lots of crazy things and that is what ultimately led me to this forum. Reading the Quran made me want to become an Atheist even more, particularly because it contains the same ridiculous story of Noah’s (global) flood. Quran 11:42 mentions waves the size of mountains.

As for the scholars whose names you listed, at present I can’t be bothered to verify what you’ve said about them. I’m sure somebody else will. I am sure they are all very smart people though.

(March 13, 2015 at 6:46 am)Alex K Wrote: Or - Prayers follow geodesics and Muhammad invented differential geometry!1!!1

I was told I should pray with my hands together and fingers pointing upwards, not with hands clasped and fingers pointing downwards, because apparently the direction the fingers point is where the prayers go, hence I would be praying to satan if I clasped my hands. So you see, it's all in the fingers...

So it's really important for catholics to aim their prayers radially outwards from the Earth then? That gives us a locus of points where Heaven is in every direction. Therefor, it shouldn't matter where you point because you will still be pointing towards heaven.

Don't people get tired of thinking, "I know this is going to have fuck all effect because most of my brain works rationally, but here we go..."

Rhythm

Oh well, them works didn't involve that earth was a sphere, didn't they ? or maybe, your small story Rhythm, was the same story that conquistadors told to their children as a justification for the massacres & barbaric extermination they committed against Muslim citizens there.

"Thieves, who stole the science of Europe from greek, then come here with their fancy perfumes to show our medieval asses that earth is a sphere ! burn them alive !!! along with their Quran! "

Then, any European who agrees with Muslims, would also end -like them- on an impale, to burn alive until death. But still it doesn't answer my topic.

Brakeman


I advice you to comment when you're sober.

Faith No More

No, I don't think so, but I included my argument in other posts if you care to read them

NuclearJaguar

For saying earth being round, is so different from saying it's a "ball" or a "sphere".

Knowing earth is a sphere is almost impossible unless you discovered the whole world -so you know that after America you're back to the old world-, or base your theories on an external source.

Check the hypocracy on a simple google search : type "who discovered earth was a sphere"

-Google answers you with :

Quote:The Greek philosopher Aristotle (384-322 BC) argued in his writings that the Earth was spherical, because of the circular shadow it cast on the Moon, during a lunar eclipse. Another reason was that some stars visible from Egypt are not seen further north The full quotation can be found here.Mar 31, 2014

-But Oxford tells you :

Quote:Though the earliest evidence of a spherical Earth comes from ancient Greek sources, there is no account of how the sphericity of the Earth was discovered

Source :

Quote:James Evans, (1998), The History and Practice of Ancient Astronomy, page 47, Oxford University Press

Historians have no fucking idea where this came from, yet the credit is always to Greece ?? seems like a nationalistic racist conquistador complex to me.

Yet, A spherical earth is something, and a round earth is something else. Despite that, there's a huge mix up between the two which I doubt it's due to ignorance.

Quote:The concept of a spherical Earth displaced earlier beliefs in a flat Earth: In early Mesopotamian mythology, the world was portrayed as a flat disk floating in the ocean and surrounded by a spherical sky

I told everybody here, that based on observation, any person can conclude the "desk theory" ; or what I call the "coin theory". A desk (since earth looks flat yet round) accompanied by a spherical sky (which is so obvious especially on low, open terrain).

What my whole topic about, and what the Quran said, and what the verses proved is that :
1)the night & day are being covering each other in a ball shape, thus the surface itself is a ball, because the word "yokawer". I explained a lot about it.
2)The earth being described as "a container", thus having a depth and thus being "hollow", with other verses stating that the inside is actually filled with metals and weights. I also brought the verses for that.

Noticing that earth is a coin is something. Yet knowing it's a sphere is something else.

Beccs

Quote:And with this, the discussion is won.

Islam has been around for 1,500 years.

*1400 years

Quote:The Jewish texts, from which the Koran came, state that the Earth is, at best, slightly curved, but makes no mention of a sphere.

The only people that "science in holy books" arguments convince are those who follow the book or already believe it.

Not those who can counter with this thing we call "evidence"

Now we have a third counter argument : Mohammed peace be upon him didn't actually copy-cat greeks, he copy-catted Ze Jews !!!

Btw, Islam is an ancient religion. But ancient I mean, Judaism was Islam before it become Judaism. Christianity was Islam before it becomes Christianity. Islam was Islam before it turns into "Sunna Islam" & "Shia Islam".

I personally believe, according to verses I read, that the idea of religion itself -i.e having god, angles ...etc- comes actually from god himself, yet to be twisted by humans over the years, to result in a twisted religion with many forgeries to its core. That's what happened to Islam which turned it before to Judaism, then god sent Jesus peace be upon him, just so shortly after his death his followers would sadly forge the thing to produce Christianity, and now we see the same scenario with Islam, with the advent of Sunni Islam & Shia Islam and having many sects.

professor

The foundation of my damnation, Professor, is human ego, accompanied by the sick desire of seeking vanity & thrones, fortune & power, turning citizens into sheep yet to harvest for more profit. From Muslim Sultans, to Christian crusading kings & knights, to soviet communist atheists, to American redneck protestant politicians, it didn't make any difference.

robvalue

Generalizing on all history as bullshit is a far-fetched accusation, indeed. But I believe you would get my point when I say how Kain was declared a vicious beast & King William a martyr. Did the Soul Reaver's existence, or Kain's statements, changed anything ? William would still be a just king because the people were taught that, because for years & years the lie was being repeated.

Oh well, didn't all the political powers did the same ? lie lie lie ? even if the real evidence was there, right in front of you, believing in it would mean a fist fight against all of the world. And hey, you're neither Kain nor Raziel, and you don't have a super duper time machine.

For that period, Europe was the wealthiest continent in the world, Britian alone was an empire where the sun never sets, in the old world it was easier to convince the citizens with lies. Even if the verse of the Quran is not removed, for any common person under occupation, defying what the government says & most the scientific community says, is actually a social suicide.
By the way many portions and blocks in history are forged like that.

The biggest example is Atilla the Hun, that there are some counter stories that describe him as a good person with many achievements, and actually a liberator rebel who fought a shitty empire. But, does history tells you that ?

Well, with my own eyes, I saw how the United States' media turned Muslims into demons to justify the invasion of Iraq ; oh wasn't the WMD just another "Paradox" that god abhorred ? The weapons cannot exist when they don't exist, despite the attempts of "Blair" and "Bush", the lie -and every lie is actually a historical paradox if you think about it-, the topic was exposed and of course : the liars got away with it, since we all know that Muslim blood is cheaper than sand.

jesus_wept

If you think that the Wahabi school represents Islam, then you live on the moon.
This Wahabbi is not the first, he has ancestors and teachers who produced fatwas to kill "Mickey Mouse" before.

Irrational

Quote:Eratosthenes assumed the Earth was round as in spherical. A coin is not a sphere or a ball ...

But google says :

Quote:The Greek philosopher Aristotle (384-322 BC) argued in his writings that the Earth was spherical, because of the circular shadow it cast on the Moon, during a lunar eclipse. Another reason was that some stars visible from Egypt are not seen further north The full quotation can be found here.Mar 31, 2014

If that not a reference to the same guy, then whom should I believe ? you ? or google ?

Or Oxford ! which said :

Quote:Though the earliest evidence of a spherical Earth comes from ancient Greek sources, there is no account of how the sphericity of the Earth was discovered

Quote:Then why did you post the link if you don't agree with the definitions provided there? You understand that I got the definition from that link, right?

No, I meant the translation links of the verse itself : saying that yokawer is "Wraps".

Quote:According to the link you posted, "youkawwer" can mean "yalouff" (to roll).

By the way, "youghatti" means to cover, not to roll

.

Exactly !

To furthermore explain to you : Yokawer is never used, unless the object is spherical. This is the same argument that Ibn Taymeia presented.

While youghatti is to cover, wraps is to cover, not referring to a spherical object.

Quote:A parsimonious reading of the verse shows that it's referring to the common misunderstanding among the ancients that the sun actually moved in the sky.

You will not find anywhere in the Qur'an that the Earth moves in a course and around the sun. There's a reason for that.

The Quran is not an astronomy book. Yet, it contains info that are facts about astronomy, like referring to the cosmos as a "space" that the sun & moon are swimming in, and that earth is spherical.
But mainly it concentrates on many other topics.

Quote:So the sun has a stopping point???

Color me unimpressed.

Yes, it has. It, never reaching that stopping point yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Yet it proves the theories more ; that the center of the galaxy is a supermassive black hole, thus if the sun ever reached the center, it's actually its resting place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermassive_black_hole

Quote:A supermassive black hole (SMBH) is the largest type of black hole, on the order of hundreds of thousands to billions of solar masses (M☉), and is found in the center of almost all massive galaxies.[1][2] In the case of the Milky Way, the SMBH is believed to correspond with the location of Sagittarius A*.[3]

Please note, that Sagittarius A exists at the center of the milky way :

Quote:Sagittarius A* (pronounced "Sagittarius A-star", standard abbreviation Sgr A*) is a bright and very compact astronomical radio source at the center of the Milky Way

Makes ya wonder, eh ?

If the center is a black hole, and we all know the massive gravitational pole of a black hole, then indeed the sun would "rest forever" in there.

Actually theories did say that the end of our galaxy, is when that black whole is massive enough to suck as all.

(March 14, 2015 at 8:25 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: Knowing earth is a sphere is almost impossible unless you discovered the whole world...

Trigonometry can tell you the earth is a sphere with only two points "discovered" on the surface.

(March 14, 2015 at 8:25 am)AtlasS2 Wrote:

---

Rhythm

Oh well, them works didn't involve that earth was a sphere, didn't they ? or maybe, your small story Rhythm, was the same story that conquistadors told to their children as a justification for the massacres & barbaric extermination they committed against Muslim citizens there.

"Thieves, who stole the science of Europe from greek, then come here with their fancy perfumes to show our medieval asses that earth is a sphere ! burn them alive !!! along with their Quran! "

Then, any European who agrees with Muslims, would also end -like them- on an impale, to burn alive until death. But still it doesn't answer my topic.

Brakeman


I advice you to comment when you're sober.

Faith No More

No, I don't think so, but I included my argument in other posts if you care to read them

NuclearJaguar

For saying earth being round, is so different from saying it's a "ball" or a "sphere".

Knowing earth is a sphere is almost impossible unless you discovered the whole world -so you know that after America you're back to the old world-, or base your theories on an external source.

Check the hypocracy on a simple google search : type "who discovered earth was a sphere"

-Google answers you with :

Quote:The Greek philosopher Aristotle (384-322 BC) argued in his writings that the Earth was spherical, because of the circular shadow it cast on the Moon, during a lunar eclipse. Another reason was that some stars visible from Egypt are not seen further north The full quotation can be found here.Mar 31, 2014

-But Oxford tells you :

Quote:Though the earliest evidence of a spherical Earth comes from ancient Greek sources, there is no account of how the sphericity of the Earth was discovered

Source :

Quote:James Evans, (1998), The History and Practice of Ancient Astronomy, page 47, Oxford University Press

Historians have no fucking idea where this came from, yet the credit is always to Greece ?? seems like a nationalistic racist conquistador complex to me.

Yet, A spherical earth is something, and a round earth is something else. Despite that, there's a huge mix up between the two which I doubt it's due to ignorance.

Quote:The concept of a spherical Earth displaced earlier beliefs in a flat Earth: In early Mesopotamian mythology, the world was portrayed as a flat disk floating in the ocean and surrounded by a spherical sky

I told everybody here, that based on observation, any person can conclude the "desk theory" ; or what I call the "coin theory". A desk (since earth looks flat yet round) accompanied by a spherical sky (which is so obvious especially on low, open terrain).

What my whole topic about, and what the Quran said, and what the verses proved is that :
1)the night & day are being covering each other in a ball shape, thus the surface itself is a ball, because the word "yokawer". I explained a lot about it.
2)The earth being described as "a container", thus having a depth and thus being "hollow", with other verses stating that the inside is actually filled with metals and weights. I also brought the verses for that.

Noticing that earth is a coin is something. Yet knowing it's a sphere is something else.

Beccs

Quote:And with this, the discussion is won.

Islam has been around for 1,500 years.

*1400 years

Quote:The Jewish texts, from which the Koran came, state that the Earth is, at best, slightly curved, but makes no mention of a sphere.

The only people that "science in holy books" arguments convince are those who follow the book or already believe it.

Not those who can counter with this thing we call "evidence"

Now we have a third counter argument : Mohammed peace be upon him didn't actually copy-cat greeks, he copy-catted Ze Jews !!!

Btw, Islam is an ancient religion. But ancient I mean, Judaism was Islam before it become Judaism. Christianity was Islam before it becomes Christianity. Islam was Islam before it turns into "Sunna Islam" & "Shia Islam".

I personally believe, according to verses I read, that the idea of religion itself -i.e having god, angles ...etc- comes actually from god himself, yet to be twisted by humans over the years, to result in a twisted religion with many forgeries to its core. That's what happened to Islam which turned it before to Judaism, then god sent Jesus peace be upon him, just so shortly after his death his followers would sadly forge the thing to produce Christianity, and now we see the same scenario with Islam, with the advent of Sunni Islam & Shia Islam and having many sects.

professor

The foundation of my damnation, Professor, is human ego, accompanied by the sick desire of seeking vanity & thrones, fortune & power, turning citizens into sheep yet to harvest for more profit. From Muslim Sultans, to Christian crusading kings & knights, to soviet communist atheists, to American redneck protestant politicians, it didn't make any difference.

robvalue

Generalizing on all history as bullshit is a far-fetched accusation, indeed. But I believe you would get my point when I say how Kain was declared a vicious beast & King William a martyr. Did the Soul Reaver's existence, or Kain's statements, changed anything ? William would still be a just king because the people were taught that, because for years & years the lie was being repeated.

Oh well, didn't all the political powers did the same ? lie lie lie ? even if the real evidence was there, right in front of you, believing in it would mean a fist fight against all of the world. And hey, you're neither Kain nor Raziel, and you don't have a super duper time machine.

For that period, Europe was the wealthiest continent in the world, Britian alone was an empire where the sun never sets, in the old world it was easier to convince the citizens with lies. Even if the verse of the Quran is not removed, for any common person under occupation, defying what the government says & most the scientific community says, is actually a social suicide.
By the way many portions and blocks in history are forged like that.

The biggest example is Atilla the Hun, that there are some counter stories that describe him as a good person with many achievements, and actually a liberator rebel who fought a shitty empire. But, does history tells you that ?

Well, with my own eyes, I saw how the United States' media turned Muslims into demons to justify the invasion of Iraq ; oh wasn't the WMD just another "Paradox" that god abhorred ? The weapons cannot exist when they don't exist, despite the attempts of "Blair" and "Bush", the lie -and every lie is actually a historical paradox if you think about it-, the topic was exposed and of course : the liars got away with it, since we all know that Muslim blood is cheaper than sand.

jesus_wept

If you think that the Wahabi school represents Islam, then you live on the moon.
This Wahabbi is not the first, he has ancestors and teachers who produced fatwas to kill "Mickey Mouse" before.

Irrational

Quote:Eratosthenes assumed the Earth was round as in spherical. A coin is not a sphere or a ball ...

But google says :

Quote:The Greek philosopher Aristotle (384-322 BC) argued in his writings that the Earth was spherical, because of the circular shadow it cast on the Moon, during a lunar eclipse. Another reason was that some stars visible from Egypt are not seen further north The full quotation can be found here.Mar 31, 2014

If that not a reference to the same guy, then whom should I believe ? you ? or google ?

Or Oxford ! which said :

Quote:Though the earliest evidence of a spherical Earth comes from ancient Greek sources, there is no account of how the sphericity of the Earth was discovered

Quote:Then why did you post the link if you don't agree with the definitions provided there? You understand that I got the definition from that link, right?

No, I meant the translation links of the verse itself : saying that yokawer is "Wraps".

Quote:According to the link you posted, "youkawwer" can mean "yalouff" (to roll).

By the way, "youghatti" means to cover, not to roll

.

Exactly !

To furthermore explain to you : Yokawer is never used, unless the object is spherical. This is the same argument that Ibn Taymeia presented.

While youghatti is to cover, wraps is to cover, not referring to a spherical object.

Quote:A parsimonious reading of the verse shows that it's referring to the common misunderstanding among the ancients that the sun actually moved in the sky.

You will not find anywhere in the Qur'an that the Earth moves in a course and around the sun. There's a reason for that.

The Quran is not an astronomy book. Yet, it contains info that are facts about astronomy, like referring to the cosmos as a "space" that the sun & moon are swimming in, and that earth is spherical.
But mainly it concentrates on many other topics.

Quote:So the sun has a stopping point???

Color me unimpressed.

Yes, it has. It, never reaching that stopping point yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Yet it proves the theories more ; that the center of the galaxy is a supermassive black hole, thus if the sun ever reached the center, it's actually its resting place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermassive_black_hole

Quote:A supermassive black hole (SMBH) is the largest type of black hole, on the order of hundreds of thousands to billions of solar masses (M☉), and is found in the center of almost all massive galaxies.[1][2] In the case of the Milky Way, the SMBH is believed to correspond with the location of Sagittarius A*.[3]

Please note, that Sagittarius A exists at the center of the milky way :

Quote:Sagittarius A* (pronounced "Sagittarius A-star", standard abbreviation Sgr A*) is a bright and very compact astronomical radio source at the center of the Milky Way

Makes ya wonder, eh ?

If the center is a black hole, and we all know the massive gravitational pole of a black hole, then indeed the sun would "rest forever" in there.

Actually theories did say that the end of our galaxy, is when that black whole is massive enough to suck as all.

---

I feel slighted.
Please, I am very interested in your response to my claim that Aryabhata wrote of a spherical earth and lived his life entirely before Mohammed and the Koran.
Perhaps you missed it (post #42).

Truly I say unto you, I eagerly await your answer.
You are neck and neck with the young earth creationist Christians for the prize of stupidest argument most in denial of observed reality in support of a cherished but inaccurately presupposed dogma. I hope you will win. For us it is something new and chewy. For yourself, you can gain status and celebrity within your own community by showing rigid resolve to blindly press on ignoring all reason.

BTW, regarding the stopping point of the sun:
Did your religious text happen to give the reference frame within which the sun is expected to stop?
If you take a rotating reference frame with time dependent distortions to cover non linearities of composition and center it on the sun, the sun is stopped now.
Is that what it meant? You'll have to give some exegesis here. I can't 'interpret' holy writ as well as you can.

(March 14, 2015 at 8:25 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: Well, with my own eyes, I saw how the United States' media turned Muslims into demons to justify the invasion of Iraq

Are you capable of discussing anything without being totally full of shit? You'll find most here disagree with the reasons Iraq was invaded not to mention that the reasons had fuck all to do with Muslim hatred or 9/11 for that matter.

I love how you say the media turned Muslims into demons. Let's describe the process:
1. Show live footage of the events of 9/11
2. Report that the hijackers were Muslim.

You conclude from this that the media is responsible while ignoring the continuous debate where the media, more likely than not, supports claims that Islam is a religion of peace, the violent Muslims are a small percentage of the faithful, et al. Your assertions are based on ignorance making it impossible to take much of what you say seriously.

The damned media!! How diabolically clever to link 911 to the religious status of the hijackers. Thank you Atlas for bringing this to my attention. [/sarcasm]