I don't think undermining the contributions of the Islamic world to science and philosophy is sensible. They achieved many great things while Europe was still staggering hundreds of years after the fall of Rome.

That doesn't mean God is real, or Islam is sensible. But I think it's fair to say that there was much clear and sensible thinking going on in the world of Islam, and still is.

(March 17, 2015 at 7:55 am)bennyboy Wrote: I don't think undermining the contributions of the Islamic world to science and philosophy is sensible. They achieved many great things while Europe was still staggering hundreds of years after the fall of Rome.

That doesn't mean God is real, or Islam is sensible. But I think it's fair to say that there was much clear and sensible thinking going on in the world of Islam, and still is.

I think we've said that repeatedly here. As far as fundamental science goes, though, they kind of kicked themselves out of the game for the time being.

Alex K

Good account of how it's really done. Another such story is of how Mendeleev created his periodic table of elements. There's a popular myth that he saw it in a dream. While in reality it took several years to think of and sort out different variants. Speaking of Newton, I've seen articles from journalists who actually believe the apple story.

By the way, there's another example of biased perception. It's interesting to see how some people react to the fact that art greatly relies on effectively formal knowledge (of colour, form, anatomy, human psychology etc.) and sometimes may be almost as algorythic as solving a system of linear algebraic equations. Not to say about all the effort that has to be put into learning and practice. While there's a rather common notion that art relies purely on revelation and talent or genious. Upon finding out "the ugly, un-romantic truth" some people get really displeased and disappointed not unlike some of the simple-minded type of believers when they suspect prophanation or blasphemy (i.e. everything that threatens to ruin their cozy perception of the Universe).

(March 16, 2015 at 12:51 pm)Chas Wrote:

(March 16, 2015 at 11:56 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: Really ? "irreparably" lost ?
who are you to judge ?

I am an intelligent, educated, informed person.

Quote:Of I forgot. more social terrorism so I shut up ; right ?

"Social terrorism"? Seriously? You need to grow a sack.

Quote:Well, here's my big lie with the reference :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth
Please sir, why don't you stop the social terrorism ?
This is a discussion and actually I do poses a strong point, not a weak one.

And of course everybody would say I'm wrong, the majority here are atheists.

You are not the one to judge my credibility.

I, and everyone here, will judge your credibility.


Your assertion is "How Muslims believed earth was spherical long before anybody mentions it."

That has been shown to be utterly false.

You, Moby Dick, are indeed a very big social terrorist.


Smaug

Well said..That's a point of view that makes sense.
As the Quran by itself is not a science book, nobody can say for certain, leaving the explanation of that faith as an inspirational source, a very valid one

(March 18, 2015 at 3:48 am)AtlasS2 Wrote:

---

(March 16, 2015 at 12:51 pm)Chas Wrote: I am an intelligent, educated, informed person.


"Social terrorism"? Seriously? You need to grow a sack.


I, and everyone here, will judge your credibility.


Your assertion is "How Muslims believed earth was spherical long before anybody mentions it."

That has been shown to be utterly false.

---

You, Moby Dick, are indeed a very big social terrorist.

Oh, please stop whining. Instead, address the actual content of the post.
You have been shown that your statement is false. Act like an honest adult and admit that you are wrong.


Note: You are also misusing the term "social terrorist". Look it up.

Chas

-_- Okay. I was wrong. I'm not a Prophet.
Though, my second theory is still valid : Islam helped in making this model an international & widely accepted one..I think many too agreed on that.
But the topic itself, and the original idea, yes I was wrong.

(March 18, 2015 at 10:26 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: Chas

-_- Okay. I was wrong. I'm not a Prophet.
Though, my second theory is still valid : Islam helped in making this model an international & widely accepted one..I think many too agreed on that.
But the topic itself, and the original idea, yes I was wrong.

But for real. You need to lay off the "Social terrorist" bullshit. People disagreeing with your views and pointing out absurd ideas is not a form of terrorism, it's called discussion and debate.

(March 18, 2015 at 10:26 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: Chas

-_- Okay. I was wrong. I'm not a Prophet.
Though, my second theory is still valid : Islam helped in making this model an international & widely accepted one..I think many too agreed on that.
But the topic itself, and the original idea, yes I was wrong.

There's a difference between Islam and Muslims. And didn't Muslims study ancient Greek thoughts, by the way?

(March 10, 2015 at 2:52 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: Hello.

In many cases, history is written by the victors. As I gave human brain the chance to differ above old grudges, it didn't.

The Muslims were the nemesis of the west since the time of the Eastern Roman Empire, it was for two main reasons :

1)Muslims were mainly Arabs : Rome discriminated against Arabs ; and to them native Arab tribes were only frontline pawns used to hit Persia.
2)Muslims weren't Christian.

Aside from "who started it", it is proven historically that Rome butchered Arab tribes who befriended the prophet, and crucified them on the borders of the levant.

Anyhow, that grudge continued until this day, I always asked myself why Europe ignored to refer in its history books, that the Quran is first book to ever mentions directly that earth is round & even padded in its core.

Muslim scholars -since the 12th century- also believed the same thing blindly from the Quran, and again the book told the truth.

First, I will show you the Quranic verses that says that loud & clear :

( 5 ) He created the heavens and earth in truth. He shapes the night over the day in a round-shape, and shapes the day over the night in a round shape, and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. Unquestionably, He is the Exalted in Might, the Perpetual Forgiver. Page 458

#Verse notes :
1) In translations to English, this verse is translated wrong. The word used is "wraps" which is a forgery & a totally wrong translation.
Arabic wise, the original word is "Yokawer يكور", which means "shapes something in a round way". Ancient Arabs used this word for the turban : "The man Yokawer his turban : wrap it around his head in a round manner".

While the word used by translators "wraps" means in arabic "Yoghshi يغشي", which means literally "covering something, wraps it up", it is a totally different word describing a different action.

Arabic-Arabic translation :
http://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/يكور/

=======================

2)The biggest bomb though, is that through the Islamic world, people believed "blindly" in the verse, and unlike Europe, Muslims believed earth was both round & in a ball shape.

Muslim scholars (who knew nothing about science but from reading the Quran), mentioned it loud & clear in their books, the most famous is "Ibn Timeia" who lived around 1200 AD.

You can find his book online (and IGNORED) here :
http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/مجموع_الفت...اء_والصفات

He has a whole chapter named "In the telling that earth is spherical shaped" :
http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/مجموع_الفت...روية_الأرض

I couldn't find an English translation for this ancient book -Of course-, though a simple google translation from Arabic to English would be sufficient.

They even believed in gravity, check it out. The Quran also mentions gravity in other verses.
=====

Aside from this ancient scholar (Ibn Taimeia), other famous Muslims said that throughout the ages, but most of their writings are in arabic and translation is hard, so I brought what I could.

The hypocrisy of history writing just amuses me. There is not even a word of mention to this in European sources..not even 1.

Still a load of crap. A child can point to the sky and call it blue and not understand the science behind why humans perceive the sky as blue. This is the gatekeeper fallacy humans in all religions and cultures fall for.

I have seen Christians and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists pull this crap. The ancient Greeks were the first to make the attempt to separate material and were the first to use the word "atom", but they had no clue what an electron proton or neutron was. And even if they did back then it still would not make their polytheistic gods real.

Making an observation is a product of our evolutionary ability to make observations, but what humans stupidly do when they make an observation, they gap fill and use that to justify their own social norms.

You cannot take ambiguous words describing something you do not understand and claim it is a scientific understanding.

(March 18, 2015 at 10:30 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: But for real. You need to lay off the "Social terrorist" bullshit. People disagreeing with your views and pointing out absurd ideas is not a form of terrorism, it's called discussion and debate.

On this point no & hell no.
Mocking the writer & making fun of him does indeed rise to the level of social terrorism.
Oh well, it also pushes the other side to become more stubborn.

Explain to me why do you think there wasn't any kind of social terrorism in this thread ????

Irrational

Since the verse directly guided to the spherical earth, then the common Muslim who doesn't know any science, did also believe in it. That's how it became widespread.

The scholars' attempts alone weren't the only key. We can argue that the models & designs along with the theories (scientifically) were based on greek contribution, but for the common man, it was all in the Quran.

That is the point that wasn't affected throughout this topic ; I also believe it was proved over & over.

Brian37


From my point of view ; an illiterate man in the desert saying that verse, would make me think twice.
If it didn't do the trick for you, then mmmmm..yeah ; different opinions..
The Quran is not an astronomy book, neither a biology article.