(September 15, 2010 at 1:59 pm)Tiberius Wrote: There exists both right-wing and left-wing fascism; this is undeniable.

I deny that there is left-wing fascism. Left wing is by definition anti-authoritarian and anti-capitalist; anyone claiming to be left wing who imposes authoritarian or capitalist rule, isn't. A good example is the Stalinist Soviet Union: Tony Cliff, a founder of the SWP, first described the USSR as a state capitalist system, the idea being that it effectively operated as one capitalist company rather than as what we would think of as a public sector entity. Putting Stalin on the left is an old right-wing propaganda trick. It muddies the waters, the fact is that Stalinism was as right wing as any right-wing party before or since. There is plenty to argue about in the definitions of left and right alone without introducing intersecting, and equally arguable, concepts like libertarian and authoritarian. The left is innately libertarian - if it is authoritarian, it isn't of the left. This tendency to take a simple word and start trying to divide it down into sub-categories that render the original words ambiguous seems to be a trend. I will look out for more of it. I would say, our history does not throw up very many examples of far left individuals or politics. Even now we have a highly capitalist, authoritarian, theocratic economic and political system. The left has barely had a look in for the last 30 years.

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Oh and the original question - what's to the right of fascist? I don't know, I've never experienced it, and I hope I never do.

(September 15, 2010 at 2:19 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(September 15, 2010 at 2:02 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: So Gandhi was 'to the left and down a bit', doesnt trip off the tongue quite as easily does it.

Or "left libertarian", which slips off the tongue a bit better. I think at the height he is, you could call him "centre left" and be a bit more accurate.

Seems like a misnomer, what exactly was "libertarian" about Ghandi?

I would call him a left liberal. Libertarian(ism) has baggage explicitly implies free-market leaning ideology.

My result if you wish to know (from that quiz):

To the right of fascism? What a terrifying thought.

A REALLY nasty absolute monarch? Nah,he'd own the means of production.

Quote:Fascism:Capitalism plus murder (Upton Sinclair)

or perhaps

Quote:A counter-revolution against a revolution which never took place (Ignazio Silone)

I've taken the Political Compass test every couple of years-- and every year I veer further down the lower left hand corner.

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But I thought Obama was a fascist-commie-muslim-socialist-atheist-unamerican-terrorist!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!

Quote:When examining the chart it's important to note that although most of the candidates seem quite different, in substance they occupy a relatively restricted area within the universal political spectrum. Democracies with a system of proportional representation give expression to a wider range of political views. While Cynthia McKinney and Ralph Nader are depicted on the extreme left in an American context, they would simply be mainstream social democrats within the wider political landscape of Europe. Similarly, Obama is popularly perceived as a leftist in the United States while elsewhere in the west his record is that of a moderate conservative. For example, in the case of the death penalty he is not an uncompromising abolitionist, while mainstream conservatives in all other western democracies are deeply opposed to capital punishment. The Democratic party's presidential candidate also reneged on his commitment to oppose the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. He sided with the ultra conservative bloc in the Supreme Court against the Washington DC handgun ban and for capital punishment in child rape cases. He supports President Bush's faith-based initiatives and is reported in Fortune to have said that NAFTA isn't so bad. Despite all this, some angry emailers tell us that Obama is a dangerous socialist who belongs on the extreme left of our chart. In an apparently close race, genuine leftists McKinney and Nader may attract sufficient votes from Obama to deliver McCain to the Oval Office.

from this page on Political Compass on the 2008 US Presidential Election.

(September 15, 2010 at 6:36 pm)Existentialist Wrote: I deny that there is left-wing fascism. Left wing is by definition anti-authoritarian and anti-capitalist; anyone claiming to be left wing who imposes authoritarian or capitalist rule, isn't.

Actually, the left is authoritarian when it comes to economics in most cases. The right is authoritarian when it comes to social values in most cases.

I agree that fascism is considered a right-wing ideaology, but this is in the same sense that anarchism is considered a left-wing ideology. The problem is, you can point to anarchists who are right-wing (anarcho-capitalists), and you can point to fascists who are left-wing (Stalin). The existence of these groups point to the whole "right-left" divide of politics as far too simplistic, hence the reason for the additional axis. The whole "left-right" divide is focused more on economic issues, since those are the main issues that separate the right-wing and left-wing. The "libertarian-authoritarian" divide is used for social issues. Thus, a left-wing fascist like Stalin is on the left-authoritarian side, and the traditional socialist like Ghandi is on the left-libertarian side. (Note: the use of the word libertarian refers to belief in social liberties, not the libertarian movement)

Quote:Putting Stalin on the left is an old right-wing propaganda trick. It muddies the waters, the fact is that Stalinism was as right wing as any right-wing party before or since.

Stalin was undeniably a supporter of communism. Communism is a left-wing idea. Communism has many forms; some of them are ant-authoritarian, and some of them are authoritarian. Stalin ran state-enforced communism; a very authoritarian version. It doesn't mean he wasn't left-wing; it just means he was an authoritarian left-wing. As Political Compass says on it's homepage, there is a need for the two axes, because otherwise people like Stalin and Ghandi would be in roughly the same place on the "left-right" scale, which is obviously rather stupid.

Quote:The left is innately libertarian - if it is authoritarian, it isn't of the left.

This is blatantly false, namely because left-wing is focused on social organisation; social progressivism, etc. The left can have very authoritarian views on other matters, such as the economy. Communist nations such as Cuba have had (until recently) a massive government control over business, where a lot of jobs are in the public sector rather than the private sector. This is an authoritarian idea; not in the sense that the government is forcing people to work for them, but in the sense that it is anti-individualism.

All you are doing is what you've consistently done here; redefine words despite what they are accepted to be. The way you have defined "left" and "right" leaves me absolutely no place to fit on the 1D line, nor does it for most people. I can't be "right-wing" because I'm a social progressive; I can't be "left-wing" because I'm a believer in the free market. Where does that leave me? A centrist? By your definition, probably, but I am no way a centrist in the sense that anyone else defines it.

(September 15, 2010 at 6:43 pm)theVOID Wrote: Seems like a misnomer, what exactly was "libertarian" about Ghandi?

I would call him a left liberal. Libertarian(ism) has baggage explicitly implies free-market leaning ideology.

The word "libertarian" in the graph denotes belief in personal liberty, not the libertarian movement. I know quite a few people who would object to you saying that Libertarianism implies free-market ideology. Take a look at Libertarian socialism.

Shhh... Guys, we have a capitalist here ^

I had a college prof who rejected this whole scale maintaining that it was more a circle and Hitler and Stalin met to close the ring.

Now, I imagine, one who have to shoehorn Glen Beck and the nutjobs in between them.

(September 16, 2010 at 7:22 pm)krazedkat Wrote: Shhh... Guys, we have a capitalist here ^

We have a few of them.

Well i did th other political quiz and got as a centrist with liberal and statist tendencies

the use of the word left and right confuses me because in my country the left is conservative..., and the capitalist wanted to remove free education from the constitution