Saying they can't be wrong about stuff, and presenting scepticism as closed mindedness

(June 4, 2015 at 7:27 pm)Nope Wrote: Drich, I have read your post several times and I still don't understand what similarities you think exist between converting to your faith and marriage.  I am not being sarcastic. I really have no idea what your basis is for the comparison

Before one is married or even seriously dating, that person only knows of marriage through what other people tell them and what they witness other people do when married.

Just like before on knows God, that only way they can know of god is through what they have witnessed and been told.

The proof of marriage (before you get married) is in the successful marriages you witness.

The proof of God (Before you get to know God personally) can also be found in those have already found Him.

That said just because your G-pop and mema have been married 90 years and love each other like they were still in grade school does not mean your experience of marriage will be like theirs. The reality is 1/2 of the marriages fail. Even so that does not stop us for Asking for.. Seeking to find, and repeating this process over and over again (knocking) until our soul mate. Even though we have no 'proof' that person truly exists. We won't know till we find them... Kinda like we don't know if their is a God. Yet, even after a failed marriage we go back and put ourselves 'out there' in hopes of finding that one person to spend the rest of our lives with, which again is A/S/K-ing all over again.

Yet when it comes to spending much longer time than the rest of our lives with God, we often point to our efforts as children and young adults (church/baptism/what not) and say because of this effort and you lack of sucess in finding God, you can conclude their iis no God. Yet if you were to put the same effort in finding that one person to spend the rest of your life with and stopped there, very few of us would even be married..

The primary point is we/you all hold the search for God to a standard that you hold nothing else in your personal life. Could you imagine what would happen to all of humanity if marriage/reproduction was tied to the same standard of proof and assureances needed for you accept God?

The sad thing is that even if God were to meet you where you wanted to be, the bar would simply be raised higher. That is why I think marriage is what it is. So that we can see our own hyprocrisy, and the double dealing we have to do to not A/S/K for God.

Quote:The primary point is we/you all hold the search for God to a standard that you hold nothing else in your personal life. Could you imagine what would happen to all of humanity if marriage/reproduction was tied to the same standard of proof and assureances needed for you accept God?

Yeah, I can, we'd end up with the world we live in, where you have to unequivocally establish that you're married before claiming the benefits afforded thereto, nitwit.   We get it though, we really do, you seriously dislike the very notion that your bullshit has to stand up to even the most casual investigation. If I were you, with a laundry list of obvious "untruths" behind me now...I'd be uncomfortable with scrutiny as well.

(June 5, 2015 at 9:14 am)Rhythm Wrote: Yeah, I can, we'd end up with the world we live in, where you have to unequivocally establish that you're married before claiming the benefits afforded thereto, nitwit.  

your joking right? or can you not phathom what was said?

If we all waited to get married and have kids, till we had 'proof' (the same level of 'proof' your looking for God) that your marriage would indeed go the distance and their would be no conflicts, the human race would cease to exist. In fact we have absolutely no issue steping out on a little faith and A/S/K when it suits us to do so. You people only pretend to not have faith when it threatens the way you think you want to live your life.


 

(June 5, 2015 at 9:10 am)Drich Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 7:27 pm)Nope Wrote: Drich, I have read your post several times and I still don't understand what similarities you think exist between converting to your faith and marriage.  I am not being sarcastic. I really have no idea what your basis is for the comparison

Before one is married or even seriously dating, that person only knows of marriage through what other people tell them and what they witness other people do when married.

Just like before on knows God, that only way they can know of god is through what they have witnessed and been told.

The proof of marriage (before you get married) is in the successful marriages you witness.

The proof of God (Before you get to know God personally) can also be found in those have already found Him.

That said just because your G-pop and mema have been married 90 years and love each other like they were still in grade school does not mean your experience of marriage will be like theirs. The reality is 1/2 of the marriages fail. Even so that does not stop us for Asking for.. Seeking to find, and repeating this process over and over again (knocking) until our soul mate. Even though we have no 'proof' that person truly exists. We won't know till we find them... Kinda like we don't know if their is a God. Yet, even after a failed marriage we go back and put ourselves 'out there' in hopes of finding that one person to spend the rest of our lives with, which again is A/S/K-ing all over again.

Yet when it comes to spending much longer time than the rest of our lives with God, we often point to our efforts as children and young adults (church/baptism/what not) and say because of this effort and you lack of sucess in finding God, you can conclude their iis no God. Yet if you were to put the same effort in finding that one person to spend the rest of your life with and stopped there, very few of us would even be married..

The primary point is we/you all hold the search for God to a standard that you hold nothing else in your personal life. Could you imagine what would happen to all of humanity if marriage/reproduction was tied to the same standard of proof and assureances needed for you accept God?

The sad thing is that even if God were to meet you where you wanted to be, the bar would simply be raised higher. That is why I think marriage is what it is. So that we can see our own hyprocrisy, and the double dealing we have to do to not A/S/K for God.

Still the dumbest analogy.

We know marriage is a thing.  There are actually certificates involved and everything.  There's 3rd party evidence of it actually, you know, existing.  There's also the fact that the people who get married actually exist.  They're not marrying a ghost, or holy spirit, or anything not tangible and evident to all.

With god, there's what's presented in the bible, which is hardly an unbiased source, and the people who buy into its tripe, who are also obviously biased and their feelings/experiences can logically be explained by other, more mundane things which, following Occam's Razor, makes it far more likely that those mundane things are the cause rather than a god entity.  Beyond that, there is zero, as in nothing, nada, zilch reputable evidence that a god entity actually exists.

And, yes, the bar is set higher for god.  The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence must be to verify it.  And the claim of being the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe is far, far more extraordinary than the idea that there may be a proper partner/mate out there for everyone.

Again, you're relying on naive romanticism and a tortured analogy to make a point that is easily refuted.

(June 5, 2015 at 11:59 am)Drich Wrote:

(June 5, 2015 at 9:14 am)Rhythm Wrote: Yeah, I can, we'd end up with the world we live in, where you have to unequivocally establish that you're married before claiming the benefits afforded thereto, nitwit.  

your joking right? or can you not phathom what was said?

If we all waited to get married and have kids, till we had 'proof' (the same level of 'proof' your looking for God) that your marriage would indeed go the distance and their would be no conflicts, the human race would cease to exist. In fact we have absolutely no issue steping out on a little faith and A/S/K when it suits us to do so. You people only pretend to not have faith when it threatens the way you think you want to live your life.


 

There's a difference between blind faith and 'faith' that's built upon actual experience and probability.  You (should) know this, and you're (likely) intentionally conflating the two.

People usually, you know, take the time to know each other first before getting married.  Not all the time, to be sure, and perhaps they're not honest during the courtship phase, or maybe there are warning signs, but one person in the couple thinks they can 'fix' the other, but generally, there's a fair amount of time spent in the presence of the other person.  Enough time so each person in the couple can learn to predict what future choices might result in based on past interactions.  It's not 100% fool proof.  People are always unpredictable to a certain extent, but it's built on pattern recognition and the probability of a resultant behavior based on each pattern.

And, really, that's the basis for all human interaction.  We know that each person has a brain and (usually) a shared culture with us.  The more time we spend around one another, the more we can predict (and manipulate) the behavior of others.  I know how my family will react to certain things.  How my friends will react to certain things.  There's no static source of information, like a book, which informs me of this, but rather a continuing cycle of cause and react which either reinforces the knowledge gathered in previous cycles, or something new and unexpected which is added to the possible consequences for a sequence of events.

Not coincidentally (but anecdotally), the people in my life who have been happily married for years are those people that spent a long time in the courtship phase, to the point where they were essentially married without holding the certificate.  

It's not at all like the faith you're describing.  It's not blind acceptance and hope.  It's a faith built on actual interactions with a separate being that actually exists.

Also...I don't like using the word "faith" for expectations built upon actual experience and probability... I'd call that 'confidence' or 'trust', just because "faith" has such baggage attached to it.

(June 5, 2015 at 12:18 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Also...I don't like using the word "faith" for expectations built upon actual experience and probability... I'd call that 'confidence' or 'trust', just because "faith" has such baggage attached to it.

Exactly right. But that wouldn't fit the game Drich and other apologists like to play.

(June 5, 2015 at 12:05 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Still the dumbest analogy.

Said the box of rocks...

Quote:We know marriage is a thing.

Marriage is an institution, Like Religion or worship is an institution. If you are going to try and be intellectually honest you need to compare apples to apples.
If you know marriage is a thing, then you equally know Christianity is a 'thing.' Again both are institution that represent a formal Deeply personal relationship.

Quote: There are actually certificates involved and everything.

The same is true with religion.

Quote:  There's 3rd party evidence of it actually, you know, existing.

Again the same is true with the actual acts contained in religion.

Quote: There's also the fact that the people who get married actually exist.  They're not marrying a ghost, or holy spirit, or anything not tangible and evident to all.

Again real people goto a real Church so again you know that is real.

What you don't seem to get is what the marriage represents is just as intangible as God IF you have never experienced either. This is also why you don't think the analogy works. because to you marriage is only a 'thing'. You don't seem to be accounting for all the intangibles that go into a relationship before a marriage can happen. Not to mention all of the intangables that must be there in order for people to stay married. These 'intangables' are also what establishes and maintains a relationship with God.

Quote:With god, there's what's presented in the bible, which is hardly an unbiased source, and the people who buy into its tripe, who are also obviously biased and their feelings/experiences can logically be explained by other, more mundane things which, following Occam's Razor, makes it far more likely that those mundane things are the cause rather than a god entity.  Beyond that, there is zero, as in nothing, nada, zilch reputable evidence that a god entity actually exists.

That's not true. The only thing you can truly say is you have found nothing to support the existence of God. just like if you were to never get married, the best you can say is that YOU have no proof of what Love is. You cant say love is not real or does not exist simply because you never experienced it.

Quote:And, yes, the bar is set higher for god.  The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence must be to verify it.

 
A claim is only deemed 'extrordinary' if and when the item or concept is completely foreign. If heavier than air flight possible? was it possible 200 years ago? if not, then why would any more proof be needed 200 years ago, than would be needed now, IF indeed the concept is sound? Prejudice. People want to believe what they think they already know.

Quote:And the claim of being the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe is far, far more extraordinary than the idea that there may be a proper partner/mate out there for everyone.

So again would a face to face with such a creator be evidence enough for you? That is what Jesus is offering in Luke 11. If we exert just the same effort we put into finding the person we want to spend our life with.

Quote:Again, you're relying on naive romanticism and a tortured analogy to make a point that is easily refuted.

Easily refuted if and only if one is not honestly looking at all of what is being said.

(June 5, 2015 at 12:17 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: There's a difference between blind faith and 'faith' that's built upon actual experience and probability.  

What makes you think blind faith is required?

Quote:You (should) know this, and you're (likely) intentionally conflating the two.

If blind faith is not required, then how can I have 'conflated anything?

Quote:People usually, you know, take the time to know each other first before getting married Not all the time, to be sure, and perhaps they're not honest during the courtship phase, or maybe there are warning signs, but one person in the couple thinks they can 'fix' the other, but generally, there's a fair amount of time spent in the presence of the other person. Enough time so each person in the couple can learn to predict what future choices might result in based on past interactions. It's not 100% fool proof. People are always unpredictable to a certain extent, but it's built on pattern recognition and the probability of a resultant behavior based on each pattern.

.

lol.. not married yet huh?
Well, after the first decade or so one starts to notice changes in themselves and in who they married. The long and short of it is you are not the same person that you were when you were dating. neither of you are.
Like wise your Understanding of God matures quite a bit after a 'few' years of getting to know Him and how He works. you will look back at your initial sunday school understanding and wonder why God did not strike you down for the sheer stupidity of your understanding and efforts. To know God, to have a relationship with Him is not the one way street you are describing. It works like any other relationship you might have.. Minus the manipulation that you seem to have in your relationships.

Not coincidentally (but anecdotally), the people in my life who have been happily married for years are those people that spent a long time in the courtship phase, to the point where they were essentially married without holding the certificate.  

Quote:It's not at all like the faith you're describing.  It's not blind acceptance and hope.  It's a faith built on actual interactions with a separate being that actually exists.

you don't seem to understand the basics I am describing... Maybe you should go back and actually read what I have written rather than try and shot gun a general anti theistic response.