(June 15, 2015 at 7:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

First, this is exactly what I meant in your introduction thread when pleading to use the search function, since we had these kind of discussion ad nauseam.

Secondly, do you really need sky daddy to tell you that it's frowned upon to axe murder your neighbour to take his stuff? I'm simplifying of course, but the question in itself is simplistic. Why be good can be sanswered by humans being a social species that is much better off getting along with their peers.

The rest is upbringing. I wasn't raised as a particular religious person, but I was raised in the spirit of being a decent human being and not an arsehole. I have compassion when I see people in need, but I never think about collecting browny points with some higher power when actually helping them.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:20 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: So you're in the godly fiat camp: things are good a cuz god sez so.

For which follows: things could just as easily have been otherwise. Hardly a rock-solid foundation then is it? "Just because I said so" seems a bit weak around the ethical gills.

And if your god establishes morality, for all time and all people, why was he a-ok with a Moses slaughtering little children in Numbers way back when? Doesn't sound like it was "established" at all.

JHC, I don't uderstand what you mean in your first 2 sentences, but like I said... I just want to know what your views are regarding my question. Your views, independent from mine. No reason to attack my beliefs, just tell me yours!

(As for your last sentence, I do feel the need to clear something up. That story is in the OT. I cannot speak for Jews, because I am not one, but as Christians we believe that there were deep flaws in humanity's perception of God before Jesus came and showed us how God is *really* like. Which is a big part of the reason why he came. And he had some harsh words for people who harmed children. I believe that the OT was mostly compromised of parables... not real, literal history.)

Quote: The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

The question I have for catholics is, what is good?

Is teaching your kids that they will burn in hell if they don’t accept jesus good? Is stoning homosexuals to death good? Is slavery good?

Quote: So if murder is wrong, where did this law come from? If this is a universal truth, where did this truth come from and who/what determined it to be what it is?

Not the bible, that’s for sure.

Human beings determine what is good and bad, and it’s subjective, and changes over time.

So where does this guy fit in on the catholic "goodness" scale?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/world/...TE&ei=5043

Quote:The case of the former envoy and archbishop, Jozef Wesolowski, caused an international scandal when it was learned that the Vatican had secretly recalled him from Santo Domingo, the Dominican capital, before officials in the Caribbean nation could investigate, saying that he could not be tried in the Dominican Republic because he had diplomatic immunity.

Mr. Wesolowski came to the attention of the Dominican authorities after a television journalist aired an investigation reporting that the ambassador had a habit of picking up shoeshine boys along the waterfront and taking them to secluded spots. Some boys said he gave them money to molest them.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:31 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 15, 2015 at 7:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

First, this is exactly what I meant in your introduction thread when pleading to use the search function, since we had these kind of discussion ad nauseam.

Secondly, do you really need sky daddy to tell you that it's frowned upon to axe murder your neighbour to take his stuff? I'm simplifying of course, but the question in itself is simplistic. Why be good can be sanswered by humans being a social species that is much better off getting along with their peers.

The rest is upbringing. I wasn't raised as a particular religious person, but I was raised in the spirit of being a decent human being and not an arsehole. I have compassion when I see people in need, but I never think about collecting browny points with some higher power when actually helping them.

Please read carefully. Like I said, we don't need to know God to know that killing is wrong, neither should we use fear of hell as some sort of ultimate motivation lol.

It's almost like we instinctively know it's wrong. But where does it come from? And if someone was brought up being taught that it's ok to kill people, and they do so, they would still be doing something immoral. Because murder is immoral regardless of how the person feels about it.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:31 pm)abaris Wrote: First, this is exactly what I meant in your introduction thread when pleading to use the search function, since we had these kind of discussion ad nauseam.

Yup, but can we ever have too much nauseam?

Shockingly, the answer would appear to be a resounding yes! By Zeus Yes! A thousand times YES YES YES!

(Apologies for my outbursts - out here on the left coast, it's still too early for a bottle of cab and way too early for Scotch, so JHC is running raw and nekkid-like, in the Netherlands between caffeine depletion and inebriation. A dark place...)

(June 15, 2015 at 7:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is kind of a spinoff of the WHY BE GOOD thread.

The question I have for atheists, isn't "why by good." I think it's simplistic and deeply flawed to think that the only reason to "be good" is to avoid Hell. And of course, I believe that anyone can be a good person regardless of beliefs.

The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

Religious or not, we all somehow know that certain things are intrinsically, universally immoral. Let's use murder as an obvious example. So if murder is wrong, where did this law come from? If this is a universal truth, where did this truth come from and who/what determined it to be what it is?

This is the sort of question that used to bother me a lot when I was a Christian. 

 There are logical reasons why murder is considered immoral.  Instability would not be good for a social species  and killing each other would definitely hurt our ability to live with one another. It makes sense that our society has  evolved to the point that  we disapprove of murdering innocent people. 


Our view on murder has changed from biblical times. For example, we no longer put people to death for cursing their parents, having an affair or being raped while in the city. Those would be considered innocent people today. They weren't considered innocent in the Old Testament world. Our views change on these issues. 

There are no easy answers. Once I became an atheist I had to rethink about what I considered moral. I couldn't just accept what the bible said was good anymore. I had to ask myself why certain actions were bad or good. In the long run, I feel that this has made me a better person but when I first lost faith this questioning really frightened me.

OP, if you want to discuss things that aren't in the "why be good?" thread, why are you just regurgitating things that can be found ad nauseum in it?

(June 15, 2015 at 7:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is kind of a spinoff of the WHY BE GOOD thread.

The question I have for atheists, isn't "why by good." I think it's simplistic and deeply flawed to think that the only reason to "be good" is to avoid Hell. And of course, I believe that anyone can be a good person regardless of beliefs.

The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

Religious or not, we all somehow know that certain things are intrinsically, universally immoral. Let's use murder as an obvious example. So if murder is wrong, where did this law come from? If this is a universal truth, where did this truth come from and who/what determined it to be what it is?

It's quite simple really, you use empathy combined with reason to determine options cause and promote suffering and which options cause and promote pleasure.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:39 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It's almost like we instinctively know it's wrong. But where does it come from? And if someone was brought up being taught that it's ok to kill people, and they do so, they would still be doing something immoral. Because murder is immoral regardless of how the person feels about it.

See, that's exactly the idea every theist brings into this board as if it was something novel. First, you have to descent from the religiously inspired human high horse and have a look at the world surrounding you. We know because we're a social species. There are advantages to being what you call good, since you get the support of your peers if you are.

And we're not the only species working that way. Not by a long chalk. Virtually every social species refrains from hurting or killing their peers. And, maybe you're different from the other we had here before, you can easily look up recent cognition research on animals to see that compassion and other so called human emotions, aren't exclusively human either.

And I can't understand for the life of me why every new arrival needs their very own "why be good" thread.