(June 20, 2015 at 9:53 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 9:41 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Are you saying god didn't know what was going to happen to jesus?

God and Jesus are one and the same. You are referring to them as individual entities separate from each other.

Well, you said god sent jesus to die for our sins but jesus could opt out because he has free will. God is omniscient and would of known in advance what the people would do and everything he would do as jesus, so opting out was really never an option. Also sacrificing yourself to yourself to circumvent rules you created in order to satisfy yourself seems completely ridiculous, don't you think?

(June 20, 2015 at 9:58 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 9:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, he is correct. I just did a poor job of referring to the trinity.

Fair enough.  However, other Christians on here have given varying accounts of the trinity (Drich, for example, believes the word 'god' is a title, and that Jesus was, indeed, a completely separate entity from the father god entity), so my larger point still remains.

These kinds of fundamental differences on the basics of your religion is why there are over 40,000 sects of Christianity alone, and one of the reasons why we scoff at the idea that any particular flavor is actually the right one.  That there is so much difference in opinion on how the trinity works, how god judges (good works more important than belief and obedience?), the nature of hell, etc. really only highlights how vague the source material actually is.

It is a concept that is beyond our comprehension. There are different ways of explaining it in order to try to bring it down to a human level so that we can understand it better. There are elements that divide Christianity into different denominations, but I don't think the Trinity is one of them.

Is that correct Randy Carson? (the former protestant lol)

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(June 20, 2015 at 9:59 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 9:53 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: God and Jesus are one and the same. You are referring to them as individual entities separate from each other.

Well, you said god sent jesus to die for our sins but jesus could opt out because he has free will. God is omniscient and would of known in advance what the people would do and everything he would do as jesus, so opting out was really never an option. Also sacrificing yourself to yourself to circumvent rules you created in order to satisfy yourself seems completely ridiculous, don't you think?

1. I should have more accurately said the Father sent Jesus. They are both God, along with the Holy Spirit. It's what we refer to as the Trinity.

2. It is ridiculous. I have never heard that before in my 29 years of Catholicism.

(June 20, 2015 at 9:59 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 9:53 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: God and Jesus are one and the same. You are referring to them as individual entities separate from each other.

Well, you said god sent jesus to die for our sins but jesus could opt out because he has free will. God is omniscient and would of known in advance what the people would do and everything he would do as jesus, so opting out was really never an option. Also sacrificing yourself to yourself to circumvent rules you created in order to satisfy yourself seems completely ridiculous, don't you think?

The story of Jesus is ridiculous for many reasons.

1. God placing the Tree of Knowledge in easy reach of Adam and Eve
2. God doing a piss poor job of explaining why they shouldn't eat the fruit
3. God creating an inherently curious species - homo sapiens 
4. God freaking the hell out and cursing humanity for the poorly defined/explained 'crime' of two
5. God deciding to forgive humanity by sending himself(?) down to live among them, ultimately to get killed by them in order to undo the curse.  Even though he's, you know, god who created humanity in his own image, is the creator of everything, and should be able to understand humanity by virtue of his supposed omniscience.  Oh, and the blood sacrifice doesn't stick since he decides death sucks three days later.

God is often described by a parent metaphor.  If that's the case, he failed to baby proof his house, the  when the baby inevitably broke something, he decided to throw the baby out of the house.  Once the baby turned 18, they reconciled, but then he committed suicide in front of his kid.

Yeah, that's the being I wanna worship.

(June 20, 2015 at 10:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 9:58 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Fair enough.  However, other Christians on here have given varying accounts of the trinity (Drich, for example, believes the word 'god' is a title, and that Jesus was, indeed, a completely separate entity from the father god entity), so my larger point still remains.

These kinds of fundamental differences on the basics of your religion is why there are over 40,000 sects of Christianity alone, and one of the reasons why we scoff at the idea that any particular flavor is actually the right one.  That there is so much difference in opinion on how the trinity works, how god judges (good works more important than belief and obedience?), the nature of hell, etc. really only highlights how vague the source material actually is.

It is a concept that is beyond our comprehension. There are different ways of explaining it in order to try to bring it down to a human level so that we can understand it better. There are elements that divide Christianity into different denominations, but I don't think the Trinity is one of them.

Is that correct Randy Carson? (the former protestant lol)

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(June 20, 2015 at 9:59 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Well, you said god sent jesus to die for our sins but jesus could opt out because he has free will. God is omniscient and would of known in advance what the people would do and everything he would do as jesus, so opting out was really never an option. Also sacrificing yourself to yourself to circumvent rules you created in order to satisfy yourself seems completely ridiculous, don't you think?

1. I should have more accurately said the Father sent Jesus. They are both God, along with the Holy Spirit. It's what we refer to as the Trinity.

2. It is ridiculous. I have never heard that before in my 29 years of Catholicism.

You never heard what?

(June 20, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 10:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It is a concept that is beyond our comprehension. There are different ways of explaining it in order to try to bring it down to a human level so that we can understand it better. There are elements that divide Christianity into different denominations, but I don't think the Trinity is one of them.

Is that correct Randy Carson? (the former protestant lol)

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1. I should have more accurately said the Father sent Jesus. They are both God, along with the Holy Spirit. It's what we refer to as the Trinity.

2. It is ridiculous. I have never heard that before in my 29 years of Catholicism.

You never heard what?

"Also sacrificing yourself to yourself to circumvent rules you created in order to satisfy yourself seems completely ridiculous, don't you think?"

(June 20, 2015 at 10:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: You never heard what?

"Also sacrificing yourself to yourself to circumvent rules you created in order to satisfy yourself seems completely ridiculous, don't you think?"

That is the story of jesus, god sent himself in human form to die in order to fulfill the sacrificial law that he created.

(June 20, 2015 at 9:58 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: These kinds of fundamental differences on the basics of your religion is why there are over 40,000 sects of Christianity alone, and one of the reasons why we scoff at the idea that any particular flavor is actually the right one.  That there is so much difference in opinion on how the trinity works, how god judges (good works more important than belief and obedience?), the nature of hell, etc. really only highlights how vague the source material actually is.

Kevin-

You make an excellent point...one I am accustomed to arguing about with Protestants in another forum

Jesus only promised to build one Church upon Peter, the Rock (cf. Mt. 16:18-19)

And with the exception of the Orthodox (who separated themselves from full communion with Rome for political reasons in the 13th century) and a smattering of heretical groups which were condemned at various Church councils down through the centuries, there was only one Christian Church, the Catholic Church for 1500 years.

Then Martin Luther proposed a number of theological novelties including the doctrine of sola scriptura (the Bible Alone) and the absolute right to private judgment (about what the meaning of scripture really was). And with that, Protestantism was off and running. Even within Luther's lifetime, he bemoaned the explosion of denominations that sprang up in the absence of God-given authority embodied in the magisterium of the Catholic Church.

So, it's not that the true Church is fragmented; it's that those who separated themselves from the true Church have continued to splinter to the almost unbelievable degree to which you made reference.

(June 20, 2015 at 10:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: You never heard what?

"Also sacrificing yourself to yourself to circumvent rules you created in order to satisfy yourself seems completely ridiculous, don't you think?"

So I take it you agree it is ridiculous but don't see how anyone can take that away from church doctrine?

I'll let someone who is up on their scriptures make that link.  I find it pretty funny myself.

(June 20, 2015 at 10:20 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 10:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: "Also sacrificing yourself to yourself to circumvent rules you created in order to satisfy yourself seems completely ridiculous, don't you think?"

That is the story of jesus, god sent himself in human form to die in order to fulfill the sacrificial law that he created.

That's the basic Christian message. According to John, Jesus said it this way:

14 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

(June 20, 2015 at 10:20 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 10:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: "Also sacrificing yourself to yourself to circumvent rules you created in order to satisfy yourself seems completely ridiculous, don't you think?"

That is the story of jesus, god sent himself in human form to die in order to fulfill the sacrificial law that he created.

This is true, but I've never heard it that way. "Satisfy yourself?", "Circumvent rules you created?"

This does not portray an accurate account of what happened.

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(June 20, 2015 at 10:25 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 10:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: "Also sacrificing yourself to yourself to circumvent rules you created in order to satisfy yourself seems completely ridiculous, don't you think?"

So I take it you agree it is ridiculous but don't see how anyone can take that away from church doctrine?

I'll let someone who is up on their scriptures make that link.  I find it pretty funny myself.

It is not being portrayed accurately.

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(June 20, 2015 at 10:33 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 10:20 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: That is the story of jesus, god sent himself in human form to die in order to fulfill the sacrificial law that he created.

That's the basic Christian message. According to John, Jesus said it this way:

14 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

^Yes.