(June 20, 2015 at 11:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:09 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: (emphasis is mine)

He had no problem with slavery though...

Morality is subjective to to time and society you live in. What may have been moral yesterday is not necessarily moral today. What is immoral today may be moral tomorrow.

This is incorrect.

I really don't think a person can read the life of Jesus in its entirety and come out of it having the honest (key word) belief that Jesus condones slavery.

Perhaps you could point out where jeebus condemned it? Maybe even spoke against it? Gave a slave trader a dirty look?

Or, if we go looking will we find jeebus exhorting slaves to obey their masters? How can you square that with the idea that jeebus did anything other than condone it?

That was the morality of the day.

(June 20, 2015 at 11:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:15 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: (emphasis is mine)

So, jeebus committed suicide for our sins. But isn't suicide a sin?!? How can a sin resolve other sins? You kathy-licks are a silly bunch.

I think choosing to not resist the enemy does not constitute as suicide.

Ahhhh. But that's not what you said at first. "Chose to die" and "choosing to not resist the enemy" are not really the same thing.

(June 20, 2015 at 11:41 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is incorrect.

I really don't think a person can read the life of Jesus in its entirety and come out of it having the honest (key word) belief that Jesus condones slavery.

Perhaps you could point out where jeebus condemned it? Maybe even spoke against it? Gave a slave trader a dirty look?

Or, if we go looking will we find jeebus exhorting slaves to obey their masters? How can you square that with the idea that jeebus did anything other than condone it?

That was the morality of the day.

(June 20, 2015 at 11:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think choosing to not resist the enemy does not constitute as suicide.

Ahhhh. But that's not what you said at first. "Chose to die" and "choosing to not resist the enemy" are not really the same thing.

He chose to die by choosing to not resist the enemy. I wouldn't call this suicide.

(June 20, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:41 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: Perhaps you could point out where jeebus condemned it? Maybe even spoke against it? Gave a slave trader a dirty look?

Or, if we go looking will we find jeebus exhorting slaves to obey their masters? How can you square that with the idea that jeebus did anything other than condone it?

That was the morality of the day.


Ahhhh. But that's not what you said at first. "Chose to die" and "choosing to not resist the enemy" are not really the same thing.

He chose to die by choosing to not resist the enemy. I wouldn't call this suicide.

But he sent himself there specifically to be sacrificed, I would call that suicide.

(June 20, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:41 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: Perhaps you could point out where jeebus condemned it? Maybe even spoke against it? Gave a slave trader a dirty look?

Or, if we go looking will we find jeebus exhorting slaves to obey their masters? How can you square that with the idea that jeebus did anything other than condone it?

That was the morality of the day.


Ahhhh. But that's not what you said at first. "Chose to die" and "choosing to not resist the enemy" are not really the same thing.

He chose to die by choosing to not resist the enemy. I wouldn't call this suicide.

No comment on the subjective morality of the early first century?

If he chose to die, that's the very definition of suicide. If I push a child out from in front of a speeding bus and get run over instead, I'm still killing myself even if it is to save another. It's a special type of suicide called a noble sacrifice, but it is still a suicide.

(June 20, 2015 at 11:41 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is incorrect.

I really don't think a person can read the life of Jesus in its entirety and come out of it having the honest (key word) belief that Jesus condones slavery.

Perhaps you could point out where jeebus condemned it? Maybe even spoke against it? Gave a slave trader a dirty look?

He told us to love everyone.... even our worst enemies who hate us. If we are supposed to treat even our worst enemy with respect, clearly, we shouldn't enslave people.

Quote:Or, if we go looking will we find jeebus exhorting slaves to obey their masters? How can you square that with the idea that jeebus did anything other than condone it?

Can you present me with the verse you are referring to? I think I can better address your question if I see the context.

Quote:That was the morality of the day.

That is what people considered moral in the day. But it never actually was moral. Remember, stoning adulterers was also considered moral at the time. Yet when it was about to happen right in front of Jesus, He stopped it, and condemned the act.

---

(June 20, 2015 at 11:47 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: He chose to die by choosing to not resist the enemy. I wouldn't call this suicide.

But he sent himself there specifically to be sacrificed, I would call that suicide.

Ok.

(June 20, 2015 at 10:38 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Did God not create the rules, according to you?  And if not to satisfy himself, why did he send himself in Jesus form?

Becca-

The death of Jesus upon the cross does "satisfy" the justice of God which requires reparation for the offenses committed against him, but it also demonstrates the mercy of God which desires that we be re-united with Him in a loving relationship. God's perfect justice and perfect mercy are united at the cross of Jesus.

Paul expressed it this way:

23 for all [of us] have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

(June 20, 2015 at 8:58 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 7:49 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Catholic Lady, you need to look up moral relativity before we can go any further. You clearly don't understand what it is, as shown by deploying semantics in defense of your conception of objective morality.


Yes, because taxes backed by the threat of jail are perfectly comparable to church donations.

Forgive me while I chuckle at your limp argumentation.

Heh...if you REALLY believed that your taxes were being used immorally, you'd protest by going to jail. Then Al Sharpton or the ACLU or somebody would show up to defend you, and Fox News would talk about you for at least a day or two.

Actually, I did protest the invasion of Iraq, marching in Ventura, CA. I didn't get arrested because, well, we tolerate dissent. And as for drone strikes, some I support and some I don't.

But this ignores the point i made, which is that you voluntarily supported an organization that you knew was deliberately acting to protect child molesters and thereby thwart justice.

You should be ashamed of yourself ... but your pride is such that you cannot confess this.

(June 20, 2015 at 11:51 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: He chose to die by choosing to not resist the enemy. I wouldn't call this suicide.

No comment on the subjective morality of the early first century?

If he chose to die, that's the very definition of suicide. If I push a child out from in front of a speeding bus and get run over instead, I'm still killing myself even if it is to save another. It's a special type of suicide called a noble sacrifice, but it is still a suicide.

This is the definition parsing that I think is such bullshit. Murder is the unjustified killing of someone. If you kill someone is self defense its not murder. You can twist the words and definitions all you want but it doesn't change the principle. Suicide would be an unjustified self murder. Jesus did not murder himself. He gave himself up to die for a morally justified cause

(June 20, 2015 at 11:56 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 10:38 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Did God not create the rules, according to you?  And if not to satisfy himself, why did he send himself in Jesus form?

Becca-

The death of Jesus upon the cross does "satisfy" the justice of God which requires reparation for the offenses committed against him, but it also demonstrates the mercy of God which desires that we be re-united with Him in a loving relationship. God's perfect justice and perfect mercy are united at the cross of Jesus.

Paul expressed it this way:

23 for all [of us] have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Perfect mercy and perfect justice contradict each other because mercy is a suspension of justice.

(June 20, 2015 at 11:12 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

(June 20, 2015 at 11:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: When you say "to satisfy Himself" it gives off the perception of selfishness and self gratification. Yes, it does make Him happy to see us happy with him in Heaven because He loves us so much. So technically, it is "satisfactory" in that sense. But it's like giving someone you love a great gift and then being happy to see them happy with it. Would you call your motives "self satisfying?"

Also, God could have "circumvented" the laws anyway He wanted. But none would have made such an impression and shown such love as coming down to die a horrible death for us on the cross. That was a physical way for us to see how much we mean to Him and what He's willing to do for us. Showing us this love helps bring more people in too, which is ultimately what He wants.

---

Please see above.

If there were mental gymnastics in the Olympics, you'd take at least bronze.

Damn right. The Gold is mine!

Bwahahahahahahahaha.