(October 9, 2010 at 9:56 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: Well, part of what I'm trying to do is refute the Christian argument that, no matter how far back you go, you have to have a God to start it all. Or, as on theologian put it, you're just postponing God starting the universe.

Bullshit. If god can be eternal, then the universe without god can also be eternal, and for considerably firmer reasons. So the eternity of god argument, rather than provide any sort of solution to the origin problem favorable to god, actually does away with any need for god at all. If god is not eternal, then the theologians are just postponing what started god, if a god started at all. So tell the idiot theologians that they shouldn't ask what is the prime mover, for raising the question exposed the prime mover to eventual human mastery. Where would theologians, beholden to god, be when the rest of humanity master any substance in the prime mover?

(October 10, 2010 at 2:06 am)Chuck Wrote:

(October 9, 2010 at 9:56 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: Well, part of what I'm trying to do is refute the Christian argument that, no matter how far back you go, you have to have a God to start it all. Or, as on theologian put it, you're just postponing God starting the universe.

Bullshit. If god can be eternal, then the universe without god can also be eternal, and for considerably firmer reasons. So the eternity of god argument, rather than provide any sort of solution to the origin problem favorable to god, actually does away with any need for god at all. If god is not eternal, then the theologians are just postponing what started god, if a god started at all. So tell the idiot theologians that they shouldn't ask what is the prime mover, for raising the question exposed the prime mover to eventual human mastery. Where would theologians, beholden to god, be when the rest of humanity master any substance in the prime mover?

Good arguments! But I've read one theologian who argues that nothing started god, because god is, and always has been, self-existent, and that that idea violates no laws of logic.

(October 10, 2010 at 12:56 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: Good arguments! But I've read one theologian who argues that nothing started god, because god is, and always has been, self-existent, and that that idea violates no laws of logic.

Ditto for the universe.

I think the vacant universe could easily be eternal; the universe is mostly empty space after all. People think of space and they think it's a "thing". It's not. It's the lack of things.

The things IN space are a different matter, like planets and stars. They would theoretically need to come into being somehow, so I doubt that matter is eternal. However, space itself is probably eternal in my opinion, considering that space IS nothingness.

(October 13, 2010 at 7:51 pm)R-e-n-n-a-t Wrote: I think the vacant universe could easily be eternal; the universe is mostly empty space after all. People think of space and they think it's a "thing". It's not. It's the lack of things.

The things IN space are a different matter, like planets and stars. They would theoretically need to come into being somehow, so I doubt that matter is eternal. However, space itself is probably eternal in my opinion, considering that space IS nothingness.

Time is part of space-time. Space-time is the gravitational field, which in turn is part of the universe.  So time and the universe are concurrent. If there was a moment with no prior moments, then the universe has experienced a finite duration in time and also has existed for all time.

(October 10, 2010 at 12:56 pm)dave4shmups Wrote:

(October 10, 2010 at 2:06 am)Chuck Wrote: Bullshit. If god can be eternal, then the universe without god can also be eternal, and for considerably firmer reasons. So the eternity of god argument, rather than provide any sort of solution to the origin problem favorable to god, actually does away with any need for god at all.   If god is not eternal, then the theologians are just postponing what started god, if a god started at all.  So tell the idiot theologians that they shouldn't ask what is the prime mover, for raising the question exposed the prime mover to eventual human mastery.   Where would theologians, beholden to god, be when the rest of humanity master any substance in the prime mover?

Good arguments!  But I've read one theologian who argues that nothing started god, because god is, and always has been, self-existent, and that that idea violates no laws of logic.

And what makes them think that something started the universe? Even if time only goes back finitely far, that does NOT mean *something* started it.

(October 13, 2010 at 7:51 pm)R-e-n-n-a-t Wrote: I think the vacant universe could easily be eternal; the universe is mostly empty space after all. People think of space and they think it's a "thing". It's not. It's the lack of things.

The things IN space are a different matter, like planets and stars. They would theoretically need to come into being somehow, so I doubt that matter is eternal. However, space itself is probably eternal in my opinion, considering that space IS nothingness.

And what is wrong with matter existing eternally? No specific piece of matter needs to do so, just matter in general.

(October 24, 2022 at 9:04 am)polymath257 Wrote:

(October 13, 2010 at 7:51 pm)R-e-n-n-a-t Wrote: I think the vacant universe could easily be eternal; the universe is mostly empty space after all. People think of space and they think it's a "thing". It's not. It's the lack of things.

The things IN space are a different matter, like planets and stars. They would theoretically need to come into being somehow, so I doubt that matter is eternal. However, space itself is probably eternal in my opinion, considering that space IS nothingness.

And what is wrong with matter existing eternally? No specific piece of matter needs to do so, just matter in general.

Per the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, how could matter not exist, as matter & energy can be converted one to another. Zero matter, zero fields and zero energy is a precisely defined state which would violate the HUP.

I think that something is eternal - it just doesn't have to be the present universe.

(October 23, 2022 at 5:18 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:

(October 13, 2010 at 7:51 pm)R-e-n-n-a-t Wrote: I think the vacant universe could easily be eternal; the universe is mostly empty space after all. People think of space and they think it's a "thing". It's not. It's the lack of things.

The things IN space are a different matter, like planets and stars. They would theoretically need to come into being somehow, so I doubt that matter is eternal. However, space itself is probably eternal in my opinion, considering that space IS nothingness.

Time is part of space-time. Space-time is the gravitational field, which in turn is part of the universe.  So time and the universe are concurrent. If there was a moment with no prior moments, then the universe has experienced a finite duration in time and also has existed for all time.

Just FYI you are replying to a 12-year old post