Here's why Creatards might be right

[jenny1972]

yes obviously i do think thinking beings create universes if the universes in question are organized and the elements within the universe are cooperative and orderly i dont think organization results from unintelligent random chaos

Have you comprehended a single damn question you've been asked this entire time?

You were talking about your experiences, your observations of the world. I asked you whether your experiences showed you intelligent beings created universes; you were the one going on about observations, I just pointed out that for the importance you place on that, you certainly haven't observed the thing you believe happened. I was demonstrating the inconsistency of your position, but it seems that whenever anybody does that- and we've had oh so many opportunities to do so today- you just revert back to merely asserting your opinion and lying about what the alternative is.

You do realize that, don't you? You're flat out lying, no bones about it, when you continue to insist that we believe the universe arose from "random chaos." Why should anyone take an unrepentant, willfully ignorant liar seriously?

ive observed intelligent beings , humans , create complex things . of course ive never witnessed an intelligent being create a universe what human could witness such a thing have you ever witnessed the creation of a universe ?

---

yes obviously i do think thinking beings create universes if the universes in question are organized and the elements within the universe are cooperative and orderly i dont think organization results from unintelligent random chaos

Is your universe creating deity organised and orderly?


If so, who created it?

If you are claiming there is a rule that everything that is organised and orderly requires an intelligent creator, the so does your god.

 Unless you're going to break that rule for your god.

i dont know what intelligence created that intelligence

[Simon Moon]

Have you comprehended a single damn question you've been asked this entire time?

You were talking about your experiences, your observations of the world. I asked you whether your experiences showed you intelligent beings created universes; you were the one going on about observations, I just pointed out that for the importance you place on that, you certainly haven't observed the thing you believe happened. I was demonstrating the inconsistency of your position, but it seems that whenever anybody does that- and we've had oh so many opportunities to do so today- you just revert back to merely asserting your opinion and lying about what the alternative is.

You do realize that, don't you? You're flat out lying, no bones about it, when you continue to insist that we believe the universe arose from "random chaos." Why should anyone take an unrepentant, willfully ignorant liar seriously?

ive observed intelligent beings , humans , create complex things . of course ive never witnessed an intelligent being create a universe what human could witness such a thing have you ever witnessed the creation of a universe ?

If intelligent beings and complex things require a creator, who created your god?

Is the intelligent creator you claim exists, complex and intelligent?

If so, please explain why the rule that intelligent beings and complex things require a creator, but your god does not.

[Simon Moon]

Have you comprehended a single damn question you've been asked this entire time?

You were talking about your experiences, your observations of the world. I asked you whether your experiences showed you intelligent beings created universes; you were the one going on about observations, I just pointed out that for the importance you place on that, you certainly haven't observed the thing you believe happened. I was demonstrating the inconsistency of your position, but it seems that whenever anybody does that- and we've had oh so many opportunities to do so today- you just revert back to merely asserting your opinion and lying about what the alternative is.

You do realize that, don't you? You're flat out lying, no bones about it, when you continue to insist that we believe the universe arose from "random chaos." Why should anyone take an unrepentant, willfully ignorant liar seriously?

ive observed intelligent beings , humans , create complex things . of course ive never witnessed an intelligent being create a universe what human could witness such a thing have you ever witnessed the creation of a universe ?

---

Is your universe creating deity organised and orderly?


If so, who created it?

If you are claiming there is a rule that everything that is organised and orderly requires an intelligent creator, the so does your god.

 Unless you're going to break that rule for your god.

i dont know what intelligence created that intelligence

I'm not asking you to name it. 

I'm just asking if it also had to be created?

[Thumpalumpacus]

You kidding with that one?  Don't do it....you'll just be proving Esqui completely right in every particular.....


http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking...is-no-god/

well if hes an atheist why should i value his opinion on a God that he admits he doesnt know ?

You're the one who quoted him, clearly out of ignorance as to his views. Perhaps you should explain your own motivations for such sloppy argumentation ... or at least your motivation for stopping your google searches where it suits you, rather than educating yourself by reading the entire work?

That's right, it's because you're not interested in learning, only in supporting your preconceived notions.

I feel sorry for you, and people like you, with your preset boundaries outside of which you're afraid to wander.

[jenny1972]

No..I'm not....so go have that argument with someone who is?  This response can actually fit for the vast majority of your posts.  This has already been mentioned more than once.  Help me help you to understand.  Do you understand why it makes little sense to respond as you've been doing?

stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you on this issue neither one of us has any proof neither one of us was there during the big bang and neither of us have firsthand knowledge of the reality of what intelligence or lack of that created existence this debate is really very silly you have zero evidence and neither do i we are debating theories , yet you keep asking for evidence when you dont have any proof yourself so stop asking for it . you believe everything is just a result of a random happening and everything just happened to evolve for no reason i disagree i believe order comes from intelligent design not by accident .

[The Grand Nudger]

You -aren't- responding to me...that's the problem.  Do you understand? You're ascribing beliefs to me, then demanding that I establish that those beliefs..which are not my own, are correct - as though this would be proof that -you- are either right or wrong....... It's idiotic.

Case in point:

you believe everything is just a result of a random happening and everything just happened to evolve for no reason

No, I don't...and I went into how things did evolve, very breifly, pages ago. So not only do I not believe this.....I've already explained my actual position. You have zero excuses.

So, maybe...respond to me...the next time you respond to me?

[The Inquisition]

ive observed intelligent beings , humans , create complex things . of course ive never witnessed an intelligent being create a universe what human could witness such a thing have you ever witnessed the creation of a universe ?

---

i dont know what intelligence created that intelligence

I'm not asking you to name it. 

I'm just asking if it also had to be created?

It only requires turtles- all the way down.

[jenny1972]

ive observed intelligent beings , humans , create complex things . of course ive never witnessed an intelligent being create a universe what human could witness such a thing have you ever witnessed the creation of a universe ?

---

i dont know what intelligence created that intelligence

I'm not asking you to name it. 

I'm just asking if it also had to be created?

im not against the idea that God is also apart of a more complex system of intelligent creation ....  but the concept of eternity is incomprehensible to the human mind and our understanding of time and space just might simply not understand an intelligent creator always existing but both are possible .

---

You -aren't- responding to me...that's the problem.  Do you understand?  You're ascribing beliefs to me, then demanding that I establish that those beliefs..which are not my own, are correct - as though this would be proof that -you- are either right or wrong.......  It's idiotic.

Case in point:

you believe everything is just a result of a random happening and everything just happened to evolve for no reason

No, I don't...and I went into how things did evolve, very breifly, pages ago.  So not only do I not believe this.....I've already explained my actual position.  You have zero excuses.  

So, maybe...respond to me...the next time you respond to me?

well im sorry if i assumed wrongly about you i apologize

[Simon Moon]

I'm not asking you to name it. 

I'm just asking if it also had to be created?

im not against the idea that God is also apart of a more complex system of intelligent creation ....  but the concept of eternity is incomprehensible to the human mind and our understanding of time and space might just not understand an intelligent creator always existing either is possible

So, it's either 'turtles all the way down' (see post above this. 

Or, a universe creating deity, with no evidence to believe it actually exists, (other than your argument from ignorance "I can't see how the universe could have come about via natural means, therefore, god") , that now you are claiming might have always existed.

Boy, for a universe creator that you claim we are unable to understand, you sure are giving it a lot of attributes.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's not often that someone overestimates human ignorance and incompetence.  So kudos on that, I guess.

You haven't just assumed wrong about me, Jenny, you've assumed wrong about every scientific theory you've mentioned. You even assumed wrong about Hawkins. You continue to assume wrong about logic and reason. That's an impressively long list of things for you to get wrong and still think, somehow...that you're right. In that context...maybe your estimation of the depths of human ignorance has at least some backing...in yourself.