Natural Order and Science

[Harris]

I sure can't get excited to argue that the Koran is incorrect in any of the ways Harris says it is flawless.  He is obviously wrong.  I'd as soon argue with a child that Sponge Bob isn't a real creature.

You have a freedom to challenge Quran. Do you think that different scholars in different times have not struggled to prove Quran wrong? They did but failed miserably. First read and try to understand Quran and tradition of Prophet Muhammad and then start criticising both of them. Criticising something without knowing and based on mere propaganda is stupidity.

[Harris]

I was a professor of physics, and I taught for over 25 years. In the beginning I had few female students in my class, but by the time I retired, just a few years ago, more that half of my class were female students. Today there are a number of outstanding female physicists. And you want to go back to a time when women were held back by men who stupidly thought they were superior?! And you believe that your sacred is inerrant?? This conversation is terminated.

First of all, for me it is really an astonishment that a respectable senior professor is behaving similar to some teenage naive girls of this thread.

Secondly, did I write somewhere that Muslim woman is not allowed to study or work?

Thirdly, what is the connection between Islamic Inheritance Law and whether Muslim woman can work or not?

You do not know that in the life time of prophet Muhammad women were working and helping their men and right after his demise young Islam has also seen female leaders. The problem is you are arguing without having proper knowledge. Instead of studying and doing some research you agree to believe in propaganda against Islam where everything is a lie.

With all that said woman in Islam, whether she is a leader or a simple housewife, is not obliged to look after financial matters of her family and even not responsible to find ways to fulfil her own material requirements unlike in western cultures where woman is forced to work, willingly or unwillingly, in order to survive.

[Harris]

How's this:

Allah either caused or allowed every death that has ever happened.

“We have decreed Death to be your common lot, and We are not to be frustrated”
Al Waaqi'ah (56)
-Verse 60-

“To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: It is He Who gives Life and Death; and He has Power over all things.”
Al Hadiid (57)
-Verse 2-

[Alex K]

Even if it is true what you say about these people, what you have demonstrated is that atheists possibly make worse dictators. While that is an interesting fact to keep in mind, I would like to go on record saying that I don't think dictatorships are a good idea.

That being said, you are of course technically wrong - none of these people killed a great number of victims. The killiing was done by others. In the case of e.g. Hitler, the killing was done by people, mostly formerly good Catholics and Protestants, who fell for a quasi-religion involving a personality cult directed at Adolf Hitler and the aryan race / German people. Why did they fall for it? Maybe because religion had made sure that for centuries, the general populace did not learn to, did not dare to question messianic authority figures - theistic religion paved the way by providing an uncritical following where a culture of critical thinking could have averted the catastrophe.

Well yes! Solder can be anyone (Christian, Muslim, atheist, …) whose job is to obey orders of his superiors. If his superior command him to kill every/any Jew, he will do his job. Therefore, the credit of that killing is not on the head of that solder but goes to the commanding officer. Similarly, credit of such killings also goes to the civilians who support their leaders for those killings.

If Angela Markel today told the army to kill all the Jews, or Syrians, or what have you. You know what they would say? No, fuck you, you're crazy. The same would hold true in most western countries.
Why is that?

[ignoramus]

Alex, save your keystrokes. This one's brain dead, Jim.

[little_monkey]

I was a professor of physics, and I taught for over 25 years. In the beginning I had few female students in my class, but by the time I retired, just a few years ago, more that half of my class were female students. Today there are a number of outstanding female physicists. And you want to go back to a time when women were held back by men who stupidly thought they were superior?! And you believe that your sacred is inerrant?? This conversation is terminated.

First of all, for me it is really an astonishment that a respectable senior professor is behaving similar to some teenage naive girls of this thread.

But some of those "naive girls" in my classes were smarter and wiser than you will ever be. Nice try to insult me, when you are being totally ridiculous. 

Secondly, did I write somewhere that Muslim woman is not allowed to study or work?

No, you didn't, but that doesn't distract from the fact that in your religion you consider women as inferior to men.

Thirdly, what is the connection between Islamic Inheritance Law and whether Muslim woman can work or not?

There was no connection, it's just you misinterpreting my post. What's unacceptable is that your religion wants to go back to the 7th century, when women were at the mercy of a man's whim.

You do not know that in the life time of prophet Muhammad women were working and helping their men and right after his demise young Islam has also seen female leaders. The problem is you are arguing without having proper knowledge. Instead of studying and doing some research you agree to believe in propaganda against Islam where everything is a lie.

I will reiterate: the point I made was not about women being able to work or not, but they are treated as inferior.

With all that said woman in Islam, whether she is a leader or a simple housewife, is not obliged to look after financial matters of her family and even not responsible to find ways to fulfil her own material requirements unlike in western cultures where woman is forced to work, willingly or unwillingly, in order to survive.

She's not obliged but she is still treated as an inferior. And as I said before, if your beliefs comes from a book that you consider as inerrant, then those beliefs will lead you and all those Muslims who believe like you do to a perpetual war with the West. Your values are irreconcilable with Western values.

[Angrboda]

Well well well! Now atheists have started picking arguments of the theists to counter argue a theist. Is not it funny.

The bad news is all what you have written is nothing but CHERRY PICKING. If you do not know what is Cherry Picking then please check post #376.

After having read #376, the real bad news is that you have no notion what cherry picking means, and have chosen this complaint because it superficially implies that I am guilty of a fault. I am not. And my arguments pointing out the flaws in your claim of "no errors" stands unrefuted. Picking points from anti-Islam sites is only a flaw if those sites actually misrepresent the Quran. So far you have a claim they do, and nothing else. There were literally dozens upon dozens of things linked to in my post. You didn't bother to examine any of them. You simply reasserted your dogma about the Quran not having any errors in it. That doesn't feed the bulldog, I'm afraid. Your claim that I was guilty of "cherry picking" as a flaw is an unsupported red herring.

Unless you want to be guilty of a fallacy yourself, you'll have to support your reasoning with more than dogma. Here, start on this:

2. Quran does not have:

a. Historical errors

The Virgin Mary

In many places, the Qur'an mentions Mary as the sister of Moses and Aaron and the daughter of Imran. The Qur'an has confused Jesus' mother with Aaron's sister because both of them carry the same name, though there are several centuries between them. The Qur'an indicates that Mary (Christ's mother) had a brother whose name was Aaron (chapter 19:28) and a father whose name is Imran (chapter 66:12). Their mother was called "the wife of Imran" (chapter 3:35) which eliminates any doubt that it confuses Mary, mother of Jesus, with Mary, sister of Aaron.

Historical Errors of the Qur'an

[The Grand Nudger]

If Angela Markel today told the army to kill all the Jews, or Syrians, or what have you. You know what they would say? No, fuck you, you're crazy. The same would hold true in most western countries.
Why is that?

They're more likely to shoot the person who issued the command than the persons towards whom the command was issued, in that instance.  Can you imagine the collective sigh of relief..
"whew, dodged that bullet quick this time fellas, gj..gj"

[Harris]

If Angela Markel today told the army to kill all the Jews, or Syrians, or what have you. You know what they would say? No, fuck you, you're crazy. The same would hold true in most western countries.
Why is that?

Angela Markel is ruling a country that has restrictions over its armed forces. Her country cannot manufacture, posses, and control over nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. Germany is bound to use its restricted military force only in accordance with the United Nations Charter. Even up until 1990 Germany was not fully independent country, and restrictions about nuclear weapons, state of the art military technology, and even shear number of troops that can be maintained are still in full force today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_...to_Germany

I do not have any reason to suspect Markel’s graceful personality but if someday something terribly goes wrong with her and she wants to continue the mission of Hitler then due to above mentioned facts she would not even dare to talk with anyone about that.

Angela Markel is not a good example.

If you want to take example, then take Russia. If Russian politicians decide to kill all Jews and command their army to kill, then be sure there would be not a single solder who dare to challenge his superior and say to him “fuck you.”

For example, US and UK arms forces have many Muslim soldiers. Their superiors are sending them to Afghanistan (poorest nation on earth) and commanding them to kill Afghan Muslims. None of Muslim solder dare to refuse direct order of his superior. I bet you have good idea about the consequences that a solder may face if he would not only refuse the direct order of his superior but also challenge him by saying “fuck you.”

[Harris]

First of all, for me it is really an astonishment that a respectable senior professor is behaving similar to some teenage naive girls of this thread.

But some of those "naive girls" in my classes were smarter and wiser than you will ever be. Nice try to insult me, when you are being totally ridiculous. 

Secondly, did I write somewhere that Muslim woman is not allowed to study or work?

No, you didn't, but that doesn't distract from the fact that in your religion you consider women as inferior to men.

Thirdly, what is the connection between Islamic Inheritance Law and whether Muslim woman can work or not?

There was no connection, it's just you misinterpreting my post. What's unacceptable is that your religion wants to go back to the 7th century, when women were at the mercy of a man's whim.

You do not know that in the life time of prophet Muhammad women were working and helping their men and right after his demise young Islam has also seen female leaders. The problem is you are arguing without having proper knowledge. Instead of studying and doing some research you agree to believe in propaganda against Islam where everything is a lie.

I will reiterate: the point I made was not about women being able to work or not, but they are treated as inferior.

With all that said woman in Islam, whether she is a leader or a simple housewife, is not obliged to look after financial matters of her family and even not responsible to find ways to fulfil her own material requirements unlike in western cultures where woman is forced to work, willingly or unwillingly, in order to survive.

She's not obliged but she is still treated as an inferior. And as I said before, if your beliefs comes from a book that you consider as inerrant, then those beliefs will lead you and all those Muslims who believe like you do to a perpetual war with the West. Your values are irreconcilable with Western values.

If I agree with you that woman is not inferior to man, then how would you answer to the following questions:

Why there is no army of women who could fight with the army of men?
Why man and woman do not have boxing matches?

I can give a whole list of similar questions and you would not be able to answer them because in nature woman is inferior to man. That is a fact.

The correct of way of saying is:

Woman is inferior to man but equal in human rights.

Islam is not treating woman as inferior to man but asking both man and woman to respect their natural limits by not crossing them.

If woman is intellectually capable of leading whole nation, then there is no restriction on her to be a leader. Islam is not restricting woman to be a leader because she is physical inferior to man. I have already mentioned in my previous response that young Islam has already seen women leaders leading whole armies and nations.

In fact, Islam was the first religion that created a culture where women have the right to vote. The respect that Islam has given to women was not known before Islam. Even today how women in modern cultures are treated is right opposite to what Islam teaches in regards to respect of women.

I blame you for throwing on me deceits of some scammers whose job is to take advantage of your ignorance. They feed you with inadequate and misleading information and you are accepting them without checking although as being a professor it is your job to check the authenticity first before giving your blind verdicts against Islam.

Regarding inheritance, you did not know about the obligations of man and for that reason you took it unjust to offer fewer portion of inheritance to woman compared to man.

Likewise, you did not know that Quran first commanded man to lower his gaze and then commanded woman for the same therefore, you took this commandment unjust and one sided in favour of men.

About 70% - 80% people who are accepting Islam in Europe and in USA are women. Do you think they are stupid because they want to live a life of inferior person?

They are by far no stupid people. Only thing is they have studied Islam properly and learned the truth that propaganda machine is trying to hide by hook or by crook.