Transexuals

[TaraJo]

Hey TaraJo, haven't seen you in a long time!

*shrug*  Yeah, I come and go.  What can I say?

[Faith No More]

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Lol, I can't believe you actually used that.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Transsexuals suffer from a diagnosable affliction called Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder. So then how is this not a mental illness if the word/term mental illness literally means:

Mental illness refers to a wide range of mental health conditions — disorders that affect your mood, thinking and behavior. Examples of mental illness include depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating disorders and addictive behaviors.
(as per the Mayo clinic)

If this is a mental disorder, then why do we allow the patients to run the asylum? Why do we have mentally compromised people trying to set a national policy that allows them to indulge their disorder?

would we allow people afflicted with Munchhausen access to their kids? Or if you want to look at other people who just hurt themselves, would we allow people who want to cut themselves places they could do so?

Ok, so let's say it's a mental condition.  I can see how that argument could be made, so let's roll with it.


Do you have a better, more effective treatment for gender dysphoria that you know of?  I mean, mental condition or not, a treatment is needed and as far as I know, this is the only one that really works.

The scientific/psychologic consensus has been that transition IS actually the best treatment for gender dysphoria.  I've watched people try countless other ways to "cure" themselves of transsexuality and the results aren't pretty.  Many of these struggles end in suicide or a kind of pseudo-suicide from dangerous activities.  I spent years, fighting it, only to make my life worse and worse.  Now that I've accepted who and what I am, I can try to fix my life and repair some of the bridges I've burnt.  I also watch my boyfriend, who is also transsexual, as his mood gets worse and worse when he needs his testosterone shot.  

And nothing else has worked.  Meditation hasn't worked.  Prayer hasn't worked.  Fixing a relationship with one or both of my parents hasn't worked.  Rejecting traditional rules about masculinity or femininity hasn't worked and neither has acccepting those rules.  Are the critics saying that there is only one treatment to gender dysphoria and I should reject it?  What kind of lunacy is that?

Glad you're back, TaraJo!

Don't worry about Dripbag, there. We've already sorted him out on why Gender Dysphoria isn't a mental disorder because a person is trans, but because of how society treats trans people, as you testified to in that bit, and is cured by the treatments... therefore nothing he said was valid. I think you'd enjoy some of the exchanges we've had in this thread, before it devolved into banter at the end.

The kind of psychotic/sociopathic thinking Dripbag demonstrates for us angers me so much, but it does fit the Christian pattern: 1) create the problem, and 2) offer an "answer" to the created problem.

They did it with sin/salvation. They did it with hijacking marriage as if they invented it and then claiming that people who wanted access to it were violating their rights. Now they do it by pointing to higher suicide rates and other psychological problems among gays and trans people, completely ignoring the fact that the only reason those stats are like they are is because of Christian-culture-based persecution.

I'd actually like some of your input on several of my posts, but of course I don't want you to feel like you have to be a spokesperson. Just, if you see anything worthy of comment, please feel free to rip my cis-understanding to shreds, if necessary.

Welcome back!

[TaraJo]

Ok, so let's say it's a mental condition.  I can see how that argument could be made, so let's roll with it.


Do you have a better, more effective treatment for gender dysphoria that you know of?  I mean, mental condition or not, a treatment is needed and as far as I know, this is the only one that really works.

The scientific/psychologic consensus has been that transition IS actually the best treatment for gender dysphoria.  I've watched people try countless other ways to "cure" themselves of transsexuality and the results aren't pretty.  Many of these struggles end in suicide or a kind of pseudo-suicide from dangerous activities.  I spent years, fighting it, only to make my life worse and worse.  Now that I've accepted who and what I am, I can try to fix my life and repair some of the bridges I've burnt.  I also watch my boyfriend, who is also transsexual, as his mood gets worse and worse when he needs his testosterone shot.  

And nothing else has worked.  Meditation hasn't worked.  Prayer hasn't worked.  Fixing a relationship with one or both of my parents hasn't worked.  Rejecting traditional rules about masculinity or femininity hasn't worked and neither has acccepting those rules.  Are the critics saying that there is only one treatment to gender dysphoria and I should reject it?  What kind of lunacy is that?

Glad you're back, TaraJo!

Don't worry about Dripbag, there. We've already sorted him out on why Gender Dysphoria isn't a mental disorder because a person is trans, but because of how society treats trans people, as you testified to in that bit, and is cured by the treatments... therefore nothing he said was valid. I think you'd enjoy some of the exchanges we've had in this thread, before it devolved into banter at the end.

The kind of psychotic/sociopathic thinking Dripbag demonstrates for us angers me so much, but it does fit the Christian pattern: 1) create the problem, and 2) offer an "answer" to the created problem.

They did it with sin/salvation. They did it with hijacking marriage as if they invented it and then claiming that people who wanted access to it were violating their rights. Now they do it by pointing to higher suicide rates and other psychological problems among gays and trans people, completely ignoring the fact that the only reason those stats are like they are is because of Christian-culture-based persecution.

I'd actually like some of your input on several of my posts, but of course I don't want you to feel like you have to be a spokesperson. Just, if you see anything worthy of comment, please feel free to rip my cis-understanding to shreds, if necessary.

Welcome back!

Oh, don't worry about me.

See, I'm not like a lot of transsexuals.  I actually want my ideas, my thoughts, to be disagreed with.  I want to be challenged.  I want people to disagree with me.  If my ideas are valid, they'll stand up to criticism.  If they don't, then I need to rethink things; at very least, I need to better understand what I believe.  But what I don't want is for people to listen to me and believe me just because I'm transsexual; I want people to listen to me because I'm right, and when I'm not, I want people to correct me so that I can be right later on.  I certainly don't want to be a recreation of 'The Emperor's New Clothes.'

So, when people question the validity of transsexuality, I can respond.  I'll be the first to admit, personal experience and personal feelings are hard to put into scientific data, but when your experience is the same as countless other people's experiences that have been documented by multiple psychologists, sociologists and other researchers, it's worth paying attention to.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Oh, don't worry about me.

See, I'm not like a lot of transsexuals.  I actually want my ideas, my thoughts, to be disagreed with.  I want to be challenged.  I want people to disagree with me.  If my ideas are valid, they'll stand up to criticism.  If they don't, then I need to rethink things; at very least, I need to better understand what I believe.  But what I don't want is for people to listen to me and believe me just because I'm transsexual; I want people to listen to me because I'm right, and when I'm not, I want people to correct me so that I can be right later on.  I certainly don't want to be a recreation of 'The Emperor's New Clothes.'

So, when people question the validity of transsexuality, I can respond.  I'll be the first to admit, personal experience and personal feelings are hard to put into scientific data, but when your experience is the same as countless other people's experiences that have been documented by multiple psychologists, sociologists and other researchers, it's worth paying attention to.

I never thought of it any other way! After all, this is Atheist Forums, not Trans Forums. We need not agree, and should not agree, unless our points are validly argued and demonstrable. I was simply trying to say we don't expect you to be some kind of spokesperson because I'm aware (from LISTENING to my minority friends/acquaintances) that too often a member of a minority is asked to be The Spokesperson For Everyone In That Minority™, like the old cliché about the History professor singling out the one black kid in the classroom and saying, "James, what do you think about the Jim Crow Era?", as if they're required to have the definitive opinion and deep understanding of the subject because of their skin color, with which they can enlighten everyone else, instead of just being like every other kid in that classroom. I wish to avoid that error.

I kind of think of a hierarchy of details-about-self, upon which "trans" or "cis" would be waaaaaaaaaaaay down the list of descriptors for a person, right amid others: "... and educated...and tall... and thin... and curly haired... and cisgendered... and brown-eyed... and liberal... and an ex-convict... and straight... and an atheist... and a fan of 80's Hair Band rock..." et cetera.

On the other hand, you may well understand things I have misrepresented despite my best attempts to do so, so if you see something I have failed to address properly (or so you think, whatever), then rip it to shreds. I shall attempt to do the same with any errors in thinking/logic/facts I see you present. That's what makes being a skeptic such a great thing... as I've written many times before, ripping up my errors/delusions/illusions is the kindest thing you can do for me.



Edit to Add: It just dawned on me that a combination of growing up listening to bands like Queen and Erasure and Twisted Sister, in the 80s, combined with my love of Hair Band rock in general, may have made it much easier for me to accept trans culture... there is exactly zero shocking to me about the trans world! Hehe.

[I_am_not_mafia]

See, I'm not like a lot of transsexuals.  I actually want my ideas, my thoughts, to be disagreed with.  I want to be challenged.  I want people to disagree with me.  If my ideas are valid, they'll stand up to criticism.  If they don't, then I need to rethink things; at very least, I need to better understand what I believe.  But what I don't want is for people to listen to me and believe me just because I'm transsexual; I want people to listen to me because I'm right, and when I'm not, I want people to correct me so that I can be right later on.  I certainly don't want to be a recreation of 'The Emperor's New Clothes.'

So, when people question the validity of transsexuality, I can respond.  I'll be the first to admit, personal experience and personal feelings are hard to put into scientific data, but when your experience is the same as countless other people's experiences that have been documented by multiple psychologists, sociologists and other researchers, it's worth paying attention to.

This attitude might be a symptom of when you transitioned. If you transitioned in a previous decade when people and even psychiatrists were not even willing to entertain the idea of transsexuality then your opinion might have been very different.

The problem is that your ideas might be valid, but if there is no evidence to refer to they can also be easily dismissed. Leaving your very existence negated. This was a real problem for those who had to fight for recognition of their medical status.

There are a lot of defensive transsexuals out there, more so the older they are. But the more progress that is made, the more the future generations can feel secure about being accepted for who they are. And hopefully have less traumatic childhoods that don't scar them for life.

[Drich]

Ok, so let's say it's a mental condition.  I can see how that argument could be made, so let's roll with it.

So rolling..

Do you have a better, more effective treatment for gender dysphoria that you know of?

Nuupe. But the problem is I quoted a study that states the vast majority do not seek help or treatment of any kind. So then the majority of the 1% who are calling for change to accommodate their untreated mental illness, are doing so at the expense of everyone else.

 I mean, mental condition or not, a treatment is needed and as far as I know, this is the only one that really works.

No, there are several that work. I quoted several studies that addressed psychological, hormonal as well pharmaceutical treatments, for those who wanted to identify with their birth sex. Sex change is only a viable option who want to peruse the opposite of their birth sex, which again becomes a non issue if they physically use the facilities as they were intended.

The point of this thread is to shed light on those who would simply put on a dress to gain entry to the ladies room because of a loop hole in the law provided by mentally ill people looking to cosplay/fool themselves into feeling beeter about who they would like to be. which only draws out the mental instability but not address it.

The scientific/psychologic consensus has been that transition IS actually the best treatment for gender dysphoria.  

Again, only for those who want it. For those who don't want the transition this would be the worst thing you could possibly do. You can't assume everyone wants your experience.

I've watched people try countless other ways to "cure" themselves of transsexuality and the results aren't pretty.  Many of these struggles end in suicide or a kind of pseudo-suicide from dangerous activities.

Which is why whatever the course of action that is taken should be under doctor supervision. Not played out or 'fixed' in public bathrooms.

 I spent years, fighting it, only to make my life worse and worse.  Now that I've accepted who and what I am, I can try to fix my life and repair some of the bridges I've burnt.  I also watch my boyfriend, who is also transsexual, as his mood gets worse and worse when he needs his testosterone shot.  

And nothing else has worked.  Meditation hasn't worked.  Prayer hasn't worked.  Fixing a relationship with one or both of my parents hasn't worked.  Rejecting traditional rules about masculinity or femininity hasn't worked and neither has acccepting those rules.  Are the critics saying that there is only one treatment to gender dysphoria and I should reject it?  What kind of lunacy is that?

Again I don't care if you want to be a boy or girl. What I am saying is until you figure out what you want and follow through with surgery (which again takes doctor approval which means your GD has been treated) you should be made to use the bathroom of your current physical sex.

[Brian37]

Hey TaraJo, haven't seen you in a long time!

*shrug*  Yeah, I come and go.  What can I say?

Great to have you back.

[Brian37]

Ok, so let's say it's a mental condition.  I can see how that argument could be made, so let's roll with it.

So rolling..

Do you have a better, more effective treatment for gender dysphoria that you know of?

Nuupe. But the problem is I quoted a study that states the vast majority do not seek help or treatment of any kind. So then the majority of the 1% who are calling for change to accommodate their untreated mental illness, are doing so at the expense of everyone else.

 I mean, mental condition or not, a treatment is needed and as far as I know, this is the only one that really works.

No, there are several that work. I quoted several studies that addressed psychological, hormonal as well pharmaceutical treatments, for those who wanted to identify with their birth sex. Sex change is only a viable option who want to peruse the opposite of their birth sex, which again becomes a non issue if they physically use the facilities as they were intended.

The point of this thread is to shed light on those who would simply put on a dress to gain entry to the ladies room because of a loop hole in the law provided by mentally ill people looking to cosplay/fool themselves into feeling beeter about who they would like to be. which only draws out the mental instability but not address it.

The scientific/psychologic consensus has been that transition IS actually the best treatment for gender dysphoria.  

Again, only for those who want it. For those who don't want the transition this would be the worst thing you could possibly do. You can't assume everyone wants your experience.

I've watched people try countless other ways to "cure" themselves of transsexuality and the results aren't pretty.  Many of these struggles end in suicide or a kind of pseudo-suicide from dangerous activities.

Which is why whatever the course of action that is taken should be under doctor supervision. Not played out or 'fixed' in public bathrooms.

 I spent years, fighting it, only to make my life worse and worse.  Now that I've accepted who and what I am, I can try to fix my life and repair some of the bridges I've burnt.  I also watch my boyfriend, who is also transsexual, as his mood gets worse and worse when he needs his testosterone shot.  

And nothing else has worked.  Meditation hasn't worked.  Prayer hasn't worked.  Fixing a relationship with one or both of my parents hasn't worked.  Rejecting traditional rules about masculinity or femininity hasn't worked and neither has acccepting those rules.  Are the critics saying that there is only one treatment to gender dysphoria and I should reject it?  What kind of lunacy is that?

Again I don't care if you want to be a boy or girl. What I am saying is until you figure out what you want and follow through with surgery (which again takes doctor approval which means your GD has been treated) you should be made to use the bathroom of your current physical sex.

So now it is a class issue? So you think anyone stuck with the wrong plumbing that doesn't match their brain has the money to do that? What happened to bible based bigotry? Back peddling now, watering it down to classism?

[Pat Mustard]

Fool, the only way for an atheist to absolve sin is to bathe in the blood of a fresh human.

Pickled ones no good? They're so nice and crunchy!