Evidence for Jesus Christ?

[thesummerqueen]

As long as Tack doesn't yell anymore.

[Dan]

Hey people!

I want to propose a challenge if you will. A challenge to any christians on this forum, or anyone else who wants to get involved.

My question is this, what evidence can you provide me with, OTHER than the bible, that jesus existed?

This may have been discussed before but i've flicked through the threads and not really found a recent one devoted to this particular question.

I want to let you guys know the reasoning behind this question, i've been watching the atheist experience for a few months now, and a popular comeback they have to people who claim the existence of jesus is 'prove it'. Well these particular atheists claim there is no evidence for jesus, and also claim that there are no other writings about jesus other than in the bible.

However i have come across things such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus which would suggest that these particular atheists are wrong.

Does anyone here know about Josephus in more depth? and do you guys think that more simple text is enough to prove he existed?

What i really would like is for someone to provide me with some physical evidence, like what he actually wrote, or a tomb or a piece of carpentry he made (he was a carpenter afterall). Otherwise i guess in arguements against Christians i can just use the line 'prove it'?


There's kinda alot here but what the bottom line question i would like to discuss is what evidence if you are a Christian would you give me that jesus existed?

Thanks for reading

Napo!

Hi, first of all, I'd like to say I grew up going to church but became uninterested around the age of 11. For about 12 years I would rarely think of God, I didn't not believe in God but just wasn't interested. However, I came to discover that my life was missing something, but I didn't know what. I started to think about God and started to attend church again, I just felt an urge as though something inside was telling me to go. Once I did, I became very intrigued and I asked God to help me find him and let him into my life. Then, one day after church I was walking home and I felt at great peace, I knew then I had connected with God, I felt his peace and became certain of his love for me. That same day I again felt a strong urge, this time to read the Bible. The Bible never interested me before but it did now, more than anything else I've ever known.

I obviously cannot prove any of this but I can say that I am just as certain that God exists as I am that I do! This is because his spirit lives in me, I could not understand this before I became a true believer, I wondered how someone could possibly be so sure about God but now I know! One thing I can say is that I used to be hateful and despise certain people, but since I have come to know God, I no longer feel like I hate anyone, I feel a compassion inside towards anyone, even if they are hateful towards me. This is probably the most dramatic change I have had, because I have come to know of God's amazing love through the Holy Spirit and the teachings in the Bible. I have also come to experience great joy, joy which I could barely dream of before I became a follower of Jesus.
Also, I now pray every day and this is something I could never understand before; how someone can be absolutely positive that their prayers will be answered. It is true that not all prayers are answered, but prayer does work if you truly believe that it will! This I can testify through things that I have personally experienced. For example, one day at work I strained a muscle in the top of my leg, I didn't notice it too much at the time, it was quite late but the next day it was quite painful. I prayed that it would get better and the very next day it was completely better! I am quite sure that something like that wouldn't just get better over night. I am convinced that God answered this prayer. I've heard numerous stories of prayers that have been answered for many different things, and I think it is hard for someone to believe it unless it happens to them. I can say trufully that I have had numerous prayers that have been answered, coincidence? Some might say that, but sometimes things happen which can make a nonbeliever a believer. My brother wasn't a believer and my dad encouraged him to read Pilgrim's Progress. At one point the character called Christian sees the cross and his weight which he felt on him was lifted, and my brother too saw it and felt as if he was floating and completely weightless! I never could have imagined something like this would happen to someone I know, and it has changed him so much!

Physically, you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. There is historical evidence that Jesus did exist and that he was crucified on the cross, but I think the really question is, was he who he claimed to be; the Son of the living God? There isn't anything in the Bible that has ever been disproven, nor has any government or leader ever been able to destroy the Bible, or the Church. It continues to grow all the time, even during the reign of Communism across much of Europe, the Church was still there and has survived much longer, for 2000 years even, against much resistance! In the past and to this present day, anyone who has tried to destroy the Church has failed and only makes it stronger. If the Bible and God and Jesus were all manmade myths, then would this be the case? Many people have suffered for their faith in Jesus but by doing so, have only being strengthened in it. Would this be the case if their beliefs were in vain? Did you know that on average over the last few years, there are 8.9million converts to Christianity in Africa alone! That is one convert every 3.5 seconds! Would this be the case if the Bible was made up?

I have come to the conclusion that if the Bible and its stories were not true, then would it have lasted and in fact strengthened more and more for 2000 years? Would it have been able to change so many people's lives and give even the most depressed people hope? If you study the Bible, you will find that it never contradicts itself and talks of the common theme of God's love throughout, not to mention that it was written by about 40 different authors over a period of 1500 years or so! If it was manmade, would there not be some contradiction, some mistakes, would there not be things that can and would've been disproved by now? The fact is, the Bible would bore many people, but for those who believe it is true, they discover new meaning, and find it becomes very interesting and significant to their lives. The same goes for hymns or worship songs, I used to like some of these before I became a Christian, but it never occurred to me what they were actually trying to say, but now they have new meaning to me.

I have come to the personal conclusion that Jesus not only existed but is the Son of the living God. Also, a true Christian believes that God is just and pure in righteousness, which are the teachings outlaid in the Bible in which we attempt to follow. By doing so, the vision of the Church is to live in peace and harmony, which I can personally testify, is much more rewarding than living in hate and anger.

These are all my personal opinions, beliefs of Christianity and what I believe from my own personal experiences, so please don’t take anything that I have said the wrong way.

Finally, 'I believe' that the only way you can prove that God exists is if you personally make a decision to seek him and want to know him. For me this was the case and my life has been much happier and fulfilling than it ever was before 'I chose' to seek God.

[reverendjeremiah]

Oh FUCK here we go again...

[downbeatplumb]

'I chose' to seek God.

And surprise surprise found him.

If people seek religion then there are more than enough available to chose from.

My wife sought spirituality and found spiritualism, she is absolutely certain that she talks regularly to dead people.

Tom cruise is convinced that the emperor xenu placed extra terrestrials around volcanoes and then exploded them causing 'thetans' to build up in our bodies today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology..._practices

Egyptians believed that the pharoah had to jack himself off every year so that the sun would come up.

The point is that people can totally convince themselves of any nonsence and the only sure way to ascertain the truth is through the scientific method.

So far the god theory has proved to be lacking any kind of evidence to support it.

As such I reject the god hypothosis as a failed explanation of anything.

[Dan]

Also, people in general will only believe something if they see it with there own eyes. If say you lived in England, and all you saw day after day was white swans, you would come to the conclusion that there are only black swans. But if you then went to Australia, you would see that there are also black swans. What about all the discoveries that science has made, people used to think the Earth was flat but that was not the case. With that in mind, can you truly and honestly say, that there is nothing beyond what we can see with our own eyes?

[Minimalist]

Finally, 'I believe' that the only way you can prove that God exists is if you personally make a decision to seek him and want to know him.

Well, I have to give you credit for being more honest than most of these other jerk offs. Yes, you can delude yourself into believing damn near anything. The OP was about actual evidence for the godboy and your delusions do not fit that definition but, like I said, points for being honest.

[Dan]

Finally, 'I believe' that the only way you can prove that God exists is if you personally make a decision to seek him and want to know him.

Well, I have to give you credit for being more honest than most of these other jerk offs. Yes, you can delude yourself into believing damn near anything. The OP was about actual evidence for the godboy and your delusions do not fit that definition but, like I said, points for being honest.

'I chose' to seek God.

And surprise surprise found him.

If people seek religion then there are more than enough available to chose from.

My wife sought spirituality and found spiritualism, she is absolutely certain that she talks regularly to dead people.

Tom cruise is convinced that the emperor xenu placed extra terrestrials around volcanoes and then exploded them causing 'thetans' to build up in our bodies today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology..._practices

Egyptians believed that the pharoah had to jack himself off every year so that the sun would come up.

The point is that people can totally convince themselves of any nonsence and the only sure way to ascertain the truth is through the scientific method.

So far the god theory has proved to be lacking any kind of evidence to support it.

As such I reject the god hypothosis as a failed explanation of anything.

Delusions are the state of oneself convincing themselves of something for no apparent reason and without any basis or proof.

A Christian convertion is not based on oneself wanting to believe something and thereby convincing themselves it is true, but rather believing in something (Jesus Christ) because of an experience, event or perhaps several. Most Christians chose to seek God and he cannot be proven to someone unless he reveals himself to them, which he will to anyone who seeks him. I did forget to mention earlier that sometimes people become believers that didn't seek God. For example in Acts 9:1-19, Saul was converted after previously spending his life attacking the church. There are also many accounts of people today whom did not seek God but rather God came to them, this video on youtube is a great example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC8DDWZtZjY

Every true Christian has had a different conversion, and this is not something that one seeks, but it is experience, a complete change within. You feel like you have been given new life, like your soul has been lifted up in immense joy, you can feel God's love for you through the Holy Spirit, you feel born again! This is a divine experience, one which God gives to all those who seek or and to those whom he choses to reveal himself. This can not be explained by science, and something that cannot be understood unless it happens to you. Can you explain how my brother felt as though he was floating when he was converted?

The fact is, I do not expect anyone who is not a Christian to understand what I mean or how it feels to be born again, but no one can tell me that there is no such thing. If there is no such thing then prove any Christian conversion with science or whatever.

[Napoléon]

That is all well and good Danny Boy, but under the same reasoning you cannot expect anyone else who has not had such an experience to believe what you are saying as anything but bullshit.

I could sit here and say i was abducted by aliens, but without any physical proof my claims are not going to be believed by any rational person.

[Minimalist]

but rather believing in something (Jesus Christ) because of an experience, event or perhaps several.

It's still a delusion. If you want to believe in your invisible sky-daddy enough your mind will concoct a reason for you to do so. The old "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" dilemma comes to mind and without evidence for "lord" ( and by that I mean real evidence!) I am content to dismiss you as one of the other two.

[Dan]

That is all well and good Danny Boy, but under the same reasoning you cannot expect anyone else who has not had such an experience to believe what you are saying as anything but bullshit.

I could sit here and say i was abducted by aliens, but without any physical proof my claims are not going to be believed by any rational person.

The absolute bottom line is, I do not expect any non-believer to believe what I have said. All I want is for other people to know of the immense joy and fulfilment I have found in Jesus for themselves, even just one person, because he has completely changed my life! Joy can be rare and shortlasting in the world, it was for me, but because of 'my faith' in Jesus I have found it! To those who don't believe me and don't want to even consider it, that is your choice, it is your life and I completely respect that. After all, who am I to tell you what to believe! I am simply trying to pass on this joy to anyone who may wish to hear it or seek it.

---

but rather believing in something (Jesus Christ) because of an experience, event or perhaps several.

It's still a delusion. If you want to believe in your invisible sky-daddy enough your mind will concoct a reason for you to do so. The old "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" dilemma comes to mind and without evidence for "lord" ( and by that I mean real evidence!) I am content to dismiss you as one of the other two.

I completely understand your position, God cannot be proven by science or whatever and we cannot see him with our own eyes. I can promise you that I am not lying about these things, I believe them with my whole heart, therefore I cannot be lying. So I guess the only question is, am I a lunatic, was Jesus a lunatic? What if he wasn't? What if you experienced what I did, or my brother did? One thing is for sure, whatever happened to us, and to all Christians, it changed our lives. Is there a possiblity that perhaps what ever happened to us, could maybe one day, happen to you? What then? Something to think about.