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RE: What would you consider to be evidence for God?
November 27, 2016 at 11:02 pm
(This post was last modified: November 28, 2016 at 12:19 am by Primordial Bisque.)
(November 27, 2016 at 7:35 pm)snowtracks Wrote: (November 12, 2016 at 2:48 am)Primordial Bisque Wrote: Snowtracks, if you need to go to these lengths to prove a god exists, maybe it's just time to face the music and accept that it's just not there. The only person you're fooling is yourself. It's an old story. Nothing more. God existence is known by everyone so no proof is needed or even proposed.
That is incorrect. Nice try attempting to evade the burden of proof, as well.
(November 27, 2016 at 7:35 pm)snowtracks Wrote: The reason God said to Moses when Moses asked 'Who should I say has send me?' God replied "Moses, I AM that I Am" which means that God cannot have an explanation of His existence which eternal to Him, for then He would depend for His existence on whatever thing it is that explains His existence, so the explanation of God's existence must be internal to Him; that is to say, God exists by a necessity of His own nature - "I AM Who* I Am" - God by necessity doesn't require a beginning (there isn't any explanation how this could be, other than 'God just exist)'. Beginning are only required on the cosmic timeline which is unidirectional where cause and effect transactions transpire. No 'these length' here since I fully endorse free will (God made the Garden of Eden very good [not perfect] but made it even better by later introducing free will).
* some translations have it as 'Who'.
So, god cannot be contingent/dependent on anything, including someone offering an explanation or evidence of "his" existence? So, you have no idea what it is you believe in and worship; outside of an old story? Do you even know what your god is?
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RE: What would you consider to be evidence for God?
December 15, 2016 at 12:18 am
(November 27, 2016 at 10:38 pm)Tonus Wrote: (November 27, 2016 at 7:35 pm)snowtracks Wrote: God existence is known by everyone so no proof is needed or even proposed.
This is what you're hanging an eternal reward or punishment on.
Humans are not punished by God for anything including those who say they don't believe in His existence. However, everyone will have their day of judgement, some will opt for a self-imposed eternal suffering, resulting from a free will decision. The equation is set-up incorrectly when portrait as this: Nonbeliever suffer eternal judgement for a temporal period (3 score and 10 +10 [by desire] as it were) of sin. The issue here is not how long the person sinned while living temporally on the earth, but rather the crux of the matter rests upon whom the sin was committed against. To commit sin against an eternal God is to commit an eternal sin. The remedy for the sin problem was the 2'nd person of the Trinity extirpating each person's sin by compressing the eternal sin judgement down to hours to 3 days. Some will take the remedy (belief that it was done for them); the sin problem will be answered one way or another. There is scripture indications that approx. 1/3 will secure the remedy.
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RE: What would you consider to be evidence for God?
December 15, 2016 at 12:55 am
(December 15, 2016 at 12:18 am)snowtracks Wrote: To commit sin against an eternal God is to commit an eternal sin.
What a bunch of bollocks! What a fucking pathetic god you worship, a being so utterly incapable of dealing with mortals that their actions somehow translate into eternal offense.
At least, that's what it would be if your mythology was actually true. I don't believe a word of it.
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RE: What would you consider to be evidence for God?
December 15, 2016 at 10:15 am
(December 15, 2016 at 12:18 am)snowtracks Wrote: Humans are not punished by God for anything including those who say they don't believe in His existence. However, everyone will have their day of judgement, some will opt or a self-imposed eternal suffering, resulting from a free will decision. The equation is set-up incorrectly when portrait as this: Nonbeliever suffer eternal judgement for a temporal period (3 score and 10 +10 [by desire] as it were) of sin. The issue here is not how long the person sinned while living temporally on the earth, but rather the crux of the matter rests upon whom the sin was committed against. To commit sin against an eternal God is to commit an eternal sin. The remedy for the sin problem was the 2'nd person of the Trinity extirpating each person's sin by compressing the eternal sin judgement down to hours to 3 days. Some will take the remedy (belief that it was done for them); the sin problem will be answered one way or another. There is scripture indications that approx. 1/3 will secure the remedy.
This is barely-coherent. It may make you feel better to blame everyone else for God's failings, but the explanation doesn't hold water. Especially since you begin by saying that no one is punished by God, then explaining all of the ways in which people will be punished by God. The justification for eternal reward or punishment is an attempt to have it both ways. God is the personification of love and kindness and mercy and generosity... but he'll condemn you to eternal suffering. In other words, god is far less merciful than any number of human beings who forgave people without requiring blood sacrifices or any torture at all. I personify love, kindness, mercy and generosity more than your god does, because I am capable of forgiving with no strings attached.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
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RE: What would you consider to be evidence for God?
December 16, 2016 at 9:06 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 10:15 am)Tonus Wrote: (December 15, 2016 at 12:18 am)snowtracks Wrote: Humans are not punished by God for anything including those who say they don't believe in His existence. However, everyone will have their day of judgement, some will opt or a self-imposed eternal suffering, resulting from a free will decision. The equation is set-up incorrectly when portrait as this: Nonbeliever suffer eternal judgement for a temporal period (3 score and 10 +10 [by desire] as it were) of sin. The issue here is not how long the person sinned while living temporally on the earth, but rather the crux of the matter rests upon whom the sin was committed against. To commit sin against an eternal God is to commit an eternal sin. The remedy for the sin problem was the 2'nd person of the Trinity extirpating each person's sin by compressing the eternal sin judgement down to hours to 3 days. Some will take the remedy (belief that it was done for them); the sin problem will be answered one way or another. There is scripture indications that approx. 1/3 will secure the remedy.
This is barely-coherent. It may make you feel better to blame everyone else for God's failings, but the explanation doesn't hold water. Especially since you begin by saying that no one is punished by God, then explaining all of the ways in which people will be punished by God. The justification for eternal reward or punishment is an attempt to have it both ways. God is the personification of love and kindness and mercy and generosity... but he'll condemn you to eternal suffering. In other words, god is far less merciful than any number of human beings who forgave people without requiring blood sacrifices or any torture at all. I personify love, kindness, mercy and generosity more than your god does, because I am capable of forgiving with no strings attached. "Eternal suffering" doesn't mean God's punishment; the suffering is self-imposed. Humans were made in God's image which means they have a 'spirit' dimension which never goes out of existence. A temporary sentence of separation from God for "for the misdeeds of a few short years on this earth" minimizes the meaning of sin and ignores the eternality of human choice, given the eternality of the human spirit. An individual who knowingly refused to worship God during this earthy life will never change his or her mind. Heaven's "price" worshiping God and God alone, exceeds what this person will ever willing pay. This individual does not want to be in God's presence and would find heaven unpleasant. As Hebrews says, "no sacrifice for sins is left" for those who knowingly discard God's sacred gift. They may regret their eternal plight but not their rebellion. The choice is eternal separation or connection, and everyone knows their choice before physical death.
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RE: What would you consider to be evidence for God?
December 16, 2016 at 9:16 pm
That boils down to "worship me for eternity or suffer."
Perhaps you need to look up what "self-imposed" means?
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RE: What would you consider to be evidence for God?
December 16, 2016 at 9:50 pm
(December 16, 2016 at 9:06 pm)snowtracks Wrote: "Eternal suffering" doesn't mean God's punishment; the suffering is self-imposed.
No, it's not. Humans are not the ones who set the conditions under which this fate is to be determined or how it is applied. God does. Misdirecting blame onto oneself is the sort of thing that an abuse victim does. It's bad enough to empower an actual living abuser. To raise an imaginary one to sovereign status is madness.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
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RE: What would you consider to be evidence for God?
December 16, 2016 at 10:23 pm
(December 16, 2016 at 9:06 pm)snowtracks Wrote: An individual who knowingly refused to worship God during this earthy life will never change his or her mind.
A soul that can't change its mind? What a useless fucking thing that would be -- No prospect of learning or change, for eternity? That would make any form of eternal life hellishly static and meaningless.
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RE: What would you consider to be evidence for God?
December 17, 2016 at 12:59 am
Any at all would be a nice start.
"For the only way to eternal glory is a life lived in service of our Lord, FSM; Verily it is FSM who is the perfect being the name higher than all names, king of all kings and will bestow upon us all, one day, The great reclaiming" -The Prophet Boiardi-
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RE: What would you consider to be evidence for God?
December 19, 2016 at 6:43 pm
I've thought about it and come to the conclusion that I don't know what would be "good evidence" for the existence of God, specifically. I once had a Catholic ask me if I would believe if God were standing right before me and I had to answer, "I wouldn't be sure. The Bible says that the devil can disguise himself as an angel of light."
But here's the deal, it doesn't even matter that I don't know. Because if God is real then SHE (God is genderless right? So this is EXACTLY as accurate as "he") knows what it would take to convince me. What's more, she WANTS me to believe. I would not deny the evidence God, herself, put before me. So IF there really is a God and IF she really wants to save me, I don't need to know what would convince me because she knows and she is going to do it because she wants me to be saved.
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