...Truth?

[brewer]

That's bizarre because every point I've made in this thread is from pure reason and evidence. Nothing to do with emotion. I think you got emotional after reading my post because you're unable to offer a rebuttal and so you've devolved into pop psychology and projection. Do you actually have anything substantive to add to the discussion?

bold mine

Show us your evidence for the omnipotent, omniscient and all good god. But maybe in a new thread.

[pocaracas]

I'm sorry that all you guys feel offended by my questioning. I don't get offended by ideas and I guess I just assume other people are the same. I see that's not fair to believe on the internet.

I also see that these forums aren't where I should be expecting to find worthwhile philosophical discussion. I entered assuming people were ready and willing to talk cooly and logically about philosophy in the context of the history of ideas and the rules of logic in general. I assumed atheists believed themselves to be intelligent and willing to question. I see now that, with this experience at least, these were unfounded assumptions and I made them unfairly. So far the only thing I've found is defensiveness, a denial of the things most philosophers would think ludicrous to deny (the validity of two of the greatest philosophers of all time, for instance), and a complete lack of desire to accept real questioning in the name of seeking truth. I see now that the atheists who are willing to reply to me on this forum are no better than the Christians I've engaged with in the past who also committed what seems to me like intellectual suicide of a pretty low form.

I don't think this is productive and it's definitely not achieving my original goal of finding intelligent conversation about the things I hold to be important. I thought you people wanted to find truth and understand reality. Maybe I was wrong. Or maybe it's just the internet. Regardless, this has become pointless. I don't appreciate that.

Anyhow, you guys have a fantastic life (to quote the Doctor). You won't see me again. And to anyone who reads the train of posting, I hope you can figure out what prompted the returns I got for my efforts to find truth. Honestly now I just feel sad and more alone than ever in my search.

That was disappointing.....


Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

[brewer]

I'm sorry that all you guys feel offended by my questioning. I don't get offended by ideas and I guess I just assume other people are the same. I see that's not fair to believe on the internet.

I also see that these forums aren't where I should be expecting to find worthwhile philosophical discussion. I entered assuming people were ready and willing to talk cooly and logically about philosophy in the context of the history of ideas and the rules of logic in general. I assumed atheists believed themselves to be intelligent and willing to question. I see now that, with this experience at least, these were unfounded assumptions and I made them unfairly. So far the only thing I've found is defensiveness, a denial of the things most philosophers would think ludicrous to deny (the validity of two of the greatest philosophers of all time, for instance), and a complete lack of desire to accept real questioning in the name of seeking truth. I see now that the atheists who are willing to reply to me on this forum are no better than the Christians I've engaged with in the past who also committed what seems to me like intellectual suicide of a pretty low form.

I don't think this is productive and it's definitely not achieving my original goal of finding intelligent conversation about the things I hold to be important. I thought you people wanted to find truth and understand reality. Maybe I was wrong. Or maybe it's just the internet. Regardless, this has become pointless. I don't appreciate that.

Anyhow, you guys have a fantastic life (to quote the Doctor). You won't see me again. And to anyone who reads the train of posting, I hope you can figure out what prompted the returns I got for my efforts to find truth. Honestly now I just feel sad and more alone than ever in my search.

Alter your approach and behavior and maybe you won't get butt hurt when rejected.

[Whateverist]

I'm sorry that all you guys feel offended by my questioning. I don't get offended by ideas and I guess I just assume other people are the same. I see that's not fair to believe on the internet.

I also see that these forums aren't where I should be expecting to find worthwhile philosophical discussion. I entered assuming people were ready and willing to talk cooly and logically about philosophy in the context of the history of ideas and the rules of logic in general. I assumed atheists believed themselves to be intelligent and willing to question. I see now that, with this experience at least, these were unfounded assumptions and I made them unfairly. So far the only thing I've found is defensiveness, a denial of the things most philosophers would think ludicrous to deny (the validity of two of the greatest philosophers of all time, for instance), and a complete lack of desire to accept real questioning in the name of seeking truth. I see now that the atheists who are willing to reply to me on this forum are no better than the Christians I've engaged with in the past who also committed what seems to me like intellectual suicide of a pretty low form.

I don't think this is productive and it's definitely not achieving my original goal of finding intelligent conversation about the things I hold to be important. I thought you people wanted to find truth and understand reality. Maybe I was wrong. Or maybe it's just the internet. Regardless, this has become pointless. I don't appreciate that.

Anyhow, you guys have a fantastic life (to quote the Doctor). You won't see me again. And to anyone who reads the train of posting, I hope you can figure out what prompted the returns I got for my efforts to find truth. Honestly now I just feel sad and more alone than ever in my search.

That was disappointing.....


Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

Good call.  Obviously not in any shape to navigate a doorway in his condition.  Oh .. if only we could have reached him.  

[Alex K]

Bye

[bennyboy]

Hey guys. I'm trying to find truth. I feel like it's worth finding. I'm currently agnostic. All I really want right now is to hear people legitimately defend their position. I'm pretty fed up with worldviews in general. I've got a few questions here that I'm just barely opening up. I'm not trying to be terribly profound; this is my first query post here and I just want to get some ideas flowing around that I can look into.

I've noticed that a lot of atheists pride themselves on not being "duped" or of not "living in a fantasy world," presumably referring to theism, deism, pantheism, or anything that accepts a supernatural element to the world of any sort. I'm just wondering, where in an atheistic worldview is there any impetus for this search for truth? From an atheistic point of view, truth has no intrinsic value (if I'm wrong here, I'd love to hear an argument for an intrinsic value of truth from an atheistic perspective), so in an isolated world, there's no reason to search for it apart from whim, and your search for truth on a whim would hardly be a reason to criticize someone else for arriving at a conclusion you deem false. An atheist'd have to go Nietzsche's direction along with the other postmodern philosophers and say that truth has no worth and that it doesn't matter whether we believe this or that—the thing that makes something worth believing is simply whether or not we believe it. I've also heard this facet of the issue argued further as "I'm concerned that wide swaths of humanity are duping themselves," but I fail to see from an atheistic perspective why there's any reason not to dupe yourself along with 'em or why you should care if others do, from a logical standpoint.

Another clear aspect of this issue, more related to this last point than to the intrinsic-value-of-truth part of the question, is the social problems associated with religion—i.e., the public practice of it. Granted, a good portion of Christians, Muslims, and many other religions cause harm in the world, but I would argue that, certainly in the former case and I hear in the latter case as well (although I'm not well-versed in Islam), those who cause harm to other people directly through their religion aren't living as their religion demands. In other words, the social issues in the world arising from religion seem to rise from an imperfect practice of religion, not the religion itself. (Once more, if you have an argument to the contrary, I'd love to talk about it.) It's the classic cliché: "I have nothing against Christianity. Christians, on the other hand...." Regardless, this is a different issue from what I'm talking about and springs from the first, so please don't begin a conversation about not liking religion because the religious infringe on your postmodern right to believing whatever you want. If that's the only reason you care, please just move on to the next topic. I'll ask about that later. What I'm concerned with here is why atheists care so much about finding the truth about the world from a philosophical perspective.


- Caleb

Before you ask why something is true, you have to be more sure that it is true.

It is not true, for example, that atheists have a universal view on ANYTHING, except their lack of belief that God exists, or their belief that God does not exist (most here probably the former).

You use a dangerous word, "intrinsic."  This smells much of theism: "God is the objective standard by which value is established."  Things don't NEED to have a philosophical "intrinsic" value in order for us to have value in them.  There's nothing intrinsically valuable about children, but we are a social species, we have instincts to care for young, and many of us will fairly contentedly live out our lives in an effort to support our offspring.  Because we are human, our children have value to us-- a God idea is not required for that to be true.

--edit--
Oh. Elvis has left the building. Oh well. Given the last few pages, I wonder what he's claiming to be "agnostic" about. Was that just deception?

[ManofYesterday]

That's bizarre because every point I've made in this thread is from pure reason and evidence. Nothing to do with emotion. I think you got emotional after reading my post because you're unable to offer a rebuttal and so you've devolved into pop psychology and projection. Do you actually have anything substantive to add to the discussion?

bold mine

Show us your evidence for the omnipotent, omniscient and all good god. But maybe in a new thread.

Sure, right after you address the point I've made in this thread. So either address it or admit you're unable to provide a rebuttal for it. Then we can more on to why you're wrong about the existence of God as well.

[brewer]

---

god is all good, pa-lease. Read much? If the product of god they should be pretty good at killin and rapin also.

Yeah, I read a lot. Do you read at all?

OK, so you just didn't comprehend the killin and rapin part. Good for you Christian human adult male who is white and straight.

[ManofYesterday]

My brain is a product of evolution. Your statement that it is 'cold', that's your emotional response. Mindless, in the sense that it is not teleological, maybe.

Cold would be a metaphor for evolution being mechanical or without consciousness. Nothing to do with me being emotional. Do you understand what a metaphor is?

Do you not think evolution is cold in this way?

---

---

Yeah, I read a lot. Do you read at all?

OK, so you just didn't comprehend the killin and rapin part. Good for you Christian human adult male who is white and straight.

So not only are you unable to engage people civilly and rationally, you also seem to hate straight white men. Interesting.

Is this forum like the Mississippi of the atheist community or something? Lmao. Are you guys going to run me out of your community with shotguns and pitchforks? Bahahaha. Looks like you already did it with the other fellow.

[brewer]

bold mine

Show us your evidence for the omnipotent, omniscient and all good god. But maybe in a new thread.

Sure, right after you address the point I've made in this thread. So either address it or admit you're unable to provide a rebuttal for it. Then we can more on to why you're wrong about the existence of God as well.

Address or rebut what, a man made fantasy delusion?