Psalm 137:9

[Harry Nevis]

Truth?  Funny, looks to me just empty bluster and emotional neediness.

 You have shown through our conversations that your sight is very limited, blinders must be a permanent fixture on your soul and mind, so sad.

GC

You're right.  My sight is limited to what's real.

What kind of emotional trauma created such a black hole in you that you that makes the fantasy you have so necessary?

So sad.

[Angrboda]

From the only place you can find an objective moral standard, moral facts of a matter.

I dont know what that means??

What you understand seems extremely limited. I have no faith in your ability to justify the stances that you've taken. So far you've declared that God is good, and that God is the foundation of objective morality, but you haven't given any reasons for believing either of these claims. In order to make the case that God is the source of objective morals, you have to do more than just assert that he is. I rather doubt that you can connect the dots between God and objective morality. You seem to be just herpily derpily repeating claims that others have made about your god. You claim that he provides a standard for morals. Laws and school codes of conduct provide standards of behavior, that doesn't make those standards in any sense a foundation for morals. Just as you can have non-moral standards of conduct, you can have non-moral standards from your god, such as his complicity towards slavery. You also argue that he gets to decide what is moral because he created us. My parents created me, but that doesn't make them a foundation for objective morals. You're full of assertions without any backing for them. You seem to be appealing to a sort of "might makes right" argument, but superior might doesn't equate to superior morality.

Actually - we DO indeed have a right to judge - because the god is claimed to be ALL GOOD and ALL JUST. If the evidence is to the contrary - we can reject those claims.

No you dont. Even if the evidence seems to be against what He might do that jdoesnt give you the right to judge Him. We are finite beings and He is an INFINITE BEING WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING AND WE DONT KNOW EVERYTHING SO its rididculous for finite beings to be judging an all powerful God.

First off, it's not clear that claiming your god is "infinite" has any actual meaning. Typically theists claim their god is omnipotent and omniscient and omnibenevolent. It's not clear that any of these attributes requires your god to be "infinite." Regardless, infinite doesn't mean incomprehensible. People like you are fond of claiming that we are in no position to judge God because he is so much greater than us, but that simply doesn't follow. I am just as capable of judging your god as I am of judging another human being, this is because I have an innate sense of the moral. I don't need anything other than my innate moral sense and capacity for reason to form justified judgements of the character of your god. This, like much of your rhetoric, seems nothing more than an empty assertion.

Furthermore, God is completely Just in judging those who disobey Him. If He didnt punish them, He would be approving of Sin.

Whether or not your god displays approval toward "sin", even if we are to grant that your god is perfectly just, none of this provides a substantial reason for considering him a foundation for objective morals. Nor does it preclude us from judging him.

[Godisgood]

Well how can humans make objective statements and say that such and such a thing is objectively wrong when they are in fact full of sin??

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Whether or not your god displays approval toward "sin",

He doesn't EVER approve of sin!!!

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People like you are fond of claiming that we are in no position to judge God because he is so much greater than us, but that simply doesn't follow. I am just as capable of judging your god as I am of judging another human being, this is because I have an innate sense of the moral. I don't need anything other than my innate moral sense and capacity for reason to form justified judgements of the character of your god. This, like much of your rhetoric, seems nothing more than an empty assertion.

Yes you can certainly attempt to judge Him but your complaints are based on nothing but opinions.  None of those things make it okay to make moral complaints about God. You can certainty give your opinion, but making any rational moral complaints, that isn't going to happen!

What gives atheists the right to judge God?  Where is their standard from which they base their moral assertions about what is right and wrong?  The problem is that they can't produce any objective standard.  They only have their subjective opinions, and that is a problem--a big problem.

Objective morals are those that are based outside of yourself.  Subjective morals are those that depend on you, your situation, culture, and your preferences. Subjective morals change, can become contradictory, and might differ from person to person.  This is the best that atheism has to offer us as a worldview.

Think about it, in atheism, there is no moral right and wrong.  There is no moral "should and shouldn't”.  Why?  Because when you remove God, you remove the standard by which objective moral truth is established.  In atheism, morality is up for grabs.

Without a standard of morality, there is no way to judge what is good or bad. Atheists, for example, might decry what is the behavior of God in the Old Testament when he orders the destruction of people groups. But, by what standard does any atheist have to judge what is morally correct? At best, an atheist would only have the ability to express an opinion since he cannot offer any objective standard of morality.

We can only judge what is moral if we have a standard given to us by God, not some standard that is based on emotion, opinion, or the changing morals of society.  Even though atheists, agnostics, Muslims, and non-Christians might not approve of standards found in the Scriptures, we Christians believe that the Bible is the revealed and inspired Word of God and that within its pages are the moral standards by which we are to model our behavior. Therefore, the right we have to judge what is moral comes from God as is revealed in his Word.

Atheists' morals are not absolute.  They do not have a set of moral laws from an absolute God by which right and wrong are judged.  But, they do live in societies that have legal systems with a codified set of laws.  This would be the closest thing to moral absolutes for atheists.  However, since the legal system changes, the morals in a society can still change and their morals along with it.  At best, these codified morals are "temporary absolutes."  In one century abortion is wrong; in another, it is right.  So if we ask if it is or isn't right, the atheist can only tell us his opinion.

[Astreja]

Well how can humans make objective statements and say that such and such a thing is objectively wrong when they are in fact full of sin??

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Whether or not your god displays approval toward "sin",

He doesn't EVER approve of sin!!!

Well, unless I'm talking about mathematics I don't tend to make objective statements.  Statements of opinion are always subjective.  Morality, being a judgment of whether something is good or bad, is also subjective.

Sin is an imaginary crime against an imaginary entity -- a supernatural embellishment to make bad behaviour seem even worse, and to criminalize things that don't hurt anyone (such as working on the Sabbath).

I can and do say that certain things are subjectively wrong, and when a substantial number of people agree with me that those things are wrong, we have established a community where those things are not tolerated.  That is how one establishes and preserves a society with morals -- through consensus, not through gods.

And you are absolutely correct when you say "He doesn't EVER approve of sin!!!"  Imaginary beings cannot approve or disapprove of anything.

[Godisgood]

First of all you are not infinite and second of all, what are your standards, because the most you can offer as an atheist is your opinion?!?

[Astreja]

First of all you are not infinite and second of all, what are your standards, because the most you can offer as an atheist is your opinion?!?

How do you know that I am not infinite, mortal?  That is your opinion as well.

[Godisgood]

Sin is an imaginary crime against an imaginary entity -- a supernatural embellishment to make bad behaviour seem even worse, and to criminalize things that don't hurt anyone (such as working on the Sabbath).

Saying that sin isnt real is your opinion and claiming that its imaginary is also imaginary. In order to know that there is no sin, you would HAVE to know that there is no God and since you CAN'T prove that the Christian God doesnt exist as a fact, you cant prove that sin doesnt exist as a fact either.

Bad behavior according to what basis? Your opinion!!??

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Then you aren't equipped to discuss objective morality, who possesses one, and what it derives from. 


You could just explain to me what that means and then we could move on. Theres no reason to be stupid and say "since you dont understand rather than me explaining it to you, because why wouldnt I want to do that, Im going to decide that you are incapable of having this conversation all because Im a human and Im only 18 and im in 12th grade and its okay that I ask questions and that I dont understand  everything" so theres no reason why you can smiply just explain it to me.

[Astreja]

I subscribe to very basic moral concepts: Don't do things that you wouldn't want done to you. When you want to help someone, do it according to what they want, not what you want, or refrain from trying to help. Pay your debts. Clean up your own messes. Pay attention to life, or you'll miss it.

I need not pick up the universe, turn it upside down and shake it until your imaginary friend comes out of his hiding place. All I need to do is be so utterly unconvinced of its existence that I consider it a waste of time to go looking for him.

(By the way, how does it feel to worship an evil god? Sucks to be you.)

[Minimalist]

Sin is an imaginary crime against an imaginary entity

This:  QFT

[Godisgood]

So now you mention God and Slavery?/

The slavery in the Bible is different than the slavery in our times. They are different and that is an absolute 10% fact.  You want to pretend that there isn't a difference, fine, go ahead but your wrong!

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Well, unless I'm talking about mathematics I don't tend to make objective statements.  Statements of opinion are always subjective.  Morality, being a judgment of whether something is good or bad, is also subjective.

So if morality is subjective, then that means that you saying my God is wrong that means its your opinion that Hes wrong and thats it!!

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Sin is an imaginary crime against an imaginary entity

This:  QFT

Thats your opinion!!