[Quranic Reflection]: The tolerance the Quran gave non-believers

[Peebothuhlu]

So... yes "Everything does what it does 'because'..." and no, that's not quite a tautology. It's the limit of our understanding of why things are as they are.

Of course, and what we understand so far about the universe and the extreme unlikeliness of our existence should warrant an explanation.
Physics is not all there is. Back to my analogy : the existence of marksman who just killed a bird is then - according to you - unknowable from the viewpoint of a physicist if he doesn't witness him shooting. The investigator finds out the bullet - already a sophisticated element in its own right - punctured vital organs of the bird, the trajectory seemed to be very very precise and tuned. Can the investigator then say : that's all I can know, there is a bullet, a dead bird with a punctured head, and that's it? The whole scene in front of the investigator absolutely warrants an explanation, even if it were not true or not provable formally, it's still the only reasonable thing to do.

Our unlikelyness of existance is exaclty '1' as I stated before. Here we are to regard every thing around us. We just do it more 'Abstractly' than most other organisms on the planet... Currently.

You're analogy is mixing the human's intent with the physics applied by the humans.

Intently directed mayhem is the same whether it's a fire sharpened stick or a berylium encased casaba howitzer.

As I replied before. A volcano's intent of its pyroclastic flow is just as deadly as any human crafted item. A vocano, however, is simply doing what the physics of geology etc direct.

A fire hardened stick will kill the bird just as surely as the pyroclastic flow will.... One is humanity appling physics. The other is physics just 'applying' itself all over a mountain.

So... other than 'Physics' (And I'll happy broaden the idea to 'nature' or 'Naturalism') what else might there be?

Cheers.

Not at work.

[The Grand Nudger]

There's nothing miraculous about the existential requirements of a questioner being met in any universe in which they exist to ask the question.

In mere reality, this is the polar opposite of miraculous - it's not even remotely surprising, regardless of whether there is or isn't a god.. It's simply the anthropic principle.

[LadyForCamus]

@Klorophyll
I am saying this to you informally once, for the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt, but if you keep your shit up there will likely be formal consequences. Mystic is not a sock account of Atlas. This accusation has been thoroughly investigated by staff and determined to be untrue. So, stop saying it. Consider this your one and only unofficial warning on the matter.

[LadyForCamus]

What kind of evidence are you looking for exactly? I said repeatedly expert judgment is the only possible way for people who don't speak Arabic to understand why the Qur'an is unique.

”Unique” is not equivalent to “shown to be likely true”. Can’t use book to prove book is magic. That’s a question begging fallacy. I mean...In case I hadn’t pointed that out already, lol. What kind of evidence am I looking for? Any at all would be nice.

And you didn't ask here to prove the truth, you asked me to establish that it is miraculous. Miraculous isn't quivalent to true, especially to someone who doesn't think God exists.

So, you can demonstrate your book is miraculous, but not that it’s true? I don’t even know what that means. Are you just making this shit up as you go along?

I am afraid you are making a category mistake when asking about evidence for a book that assumes God exists.

I’m afraid you don’t understand what a category mistake is. It’s never a logical error to demand corroborating evidence for an extraordinary claim, i.e., “the Quran is true”. You can twist it any you like, but your entire case for Islam is propped up on a fallacy.

[LadyForCamus]

At work.


Hello Klorophyll!

So, starting with the second premise first.

Physicists don't actually assert that the atoms, quarks, gluons etc are "Precisely tuned".

They are saying that the fundamental bits are like they are 'Just because'.

They keep building bigger and better atom smashers because they want to work out the 'Why' fundamental particles are as/what they are.

In fact, there's an idea that the 'Rest mass' of say electrons actually might just suddenly change/drop one day.  

There by setting off a cascade chain of events that literally, at the speed of ligh and perhapse even faster, 'Over-write' our reality (Erasing it) as the new 'Rest state' instantly becomes the normal.

As for "The beginning of everything" ?

Again physicists aren't quite saying that.

What they are saying is that 'There's a period waaaay back in time when everything was like 'X'.

.As in such a high energy state that litteraly NOTHING in our current reality matches that much 'Energy'.

There are no stars big or small enough to generate 5he mind bending physics such a state was.

Even the reality distorting/destroying physics of  black holes (Which again we're guessing and poking at) are/is just an approximation of such energy states.

Things were so weirdly different that time, space, reality as we know/understand/model just doesn't work.

So? The physicists keep thinking, testing and working things out. The better to understand such things.

Cheers.

It'a little bit more than that, physical constants are the way they are to alllow life to happen. That's way we think there was a plan for us, the tiniest change means a lifeless and completely different universe. Of course one can just say life just happened and here we are talking about it, but then it becomes impossible to change your mind if you say the same thing no matter how compelling is the evidence for theism

“Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, “This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!” This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was made to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.”

Douglas Adams

[R00tKiT]

@Klorophyll
I am saying this to you informally once, for the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt, but if you keep your shit up there will likely be formal consequences. Mystic is not a sock account of Atlas. This accusation has been thoroughly investigated by staff and determined to be untrue. So, stop saying it. Consider this your one and only unofficial warning on the matter.

I am curious to know the whereabouts of the *investigation*. One thing is certain though, Mystic is not the MysticKnight that used to be in the forum. And the account was strangely logging in and starting to spam me with comments just after I ignore one more insult of Atlas (like *extremist piece of shit* ), for which there were no *formal consequences*.

This strange account stopped commenting shortly after my thread was closed. Good job, Mystic.

”Unique” is not equivalent to “shown to be likely true”. Can’t use book to prove book is magic. That’s a question begging fallacy. I mean...In case I hadn’t pointed that out already, lol. What kind of evidence am I looking for? Any at all would be nice.

So expert judgment is zero evidence to you? How do non native speakers usually know Shakespeare was a really good writer without the need of reading him?

I’m afraid you don’t understand what a category mistake is. It’s never a logical error to demand corroborating evidence for an extraordinary claim, i.e., “the Quran is true”. You can twist it any you like, but your entire case for Islam is propped up on a fallacy.

I'll rest my case until we agree on the god question first.

“Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, “This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!” This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was made to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.”

Douglas Adams

There is too much complexity (including the irreducible type) in this world for you to quote an analogy with a fucking puddle. If the puddle had in every cell in its body a DNA that could stretch from the earth to the sun and back 600 times, he would have been right.

[The Grand Nudger]

The puddle would be no more right in any one scenario than another. It's a logically necessity that all requirements for the existence of any given questioner, in any given universe, with any given value for variables or constants, be met.

If they weren't, the questioner would not exist to ask the question. No matter what they are, or what the questioner is.

[R00tKiT]

The puddle would be no more right in any one scenario than another.  It's a logically necessity that all requirements for the existence of any given questioner, in any given universe, with any given value for variables or constants, be met.

If they weren't, the questioner would not exist to ask the question.  No matter what they are, or what the questioner is.

Really, so if someone start shooting me from a very close range but keeps missing me until billions of bullets are wasted, wouldn't that mean he's cross eyed, or that I can't make such a conclusion because I survived?

How many more bullets do you need to start believing he missed on purpose?

[The Grand Nudger]

You must live in a universe in which bullets can be fired in order to ask the question of why some shooter in that universe missed you.

[LadyForCamus]

@Klorophyll
I am saying this to you informally once, for the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt, but if you keep your shit up there will likely be formal consequences. Mystic is not a sock account of Atlas. This accusation has been thoroughly investigated by staff and determined to be untrue. So, stop saying it. Consider this your one and only unofficial warning on the matter.

I am curious to know the whereabouts of the *investigation*.

In our secret, elitist, moderator bat cave, where we eat babies and conduct ethically questionable experiments on unsuspecting members all day. 

So expert judgment is zero evidence to you? How do non native speakers usually know Shakespeare was a really good writer without the need of reading him?

 Are you insinuating that Shakespeare’s works have been demonstrated to be non fiction simply by way of reading them? 

“Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, “This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!” This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was made to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.”

Douglas Adams

There is too much complexity (including the irreducible type) in this world for you to quote an analogy with a fucking puddle. If the puddle had in every cell in its body a DNA that could stretch from the earth to the sun and back 600 times, he would have been right.

There is no such thing as “irreducible complexity.” That’s an ‘personal incredulity’ fallacy erroneously propped up as scientific fact. Misunderstanding evolution is not fostering a positive case for god. You’re going to have to try again. If you’re still around, that is.