Do mimsy atheists gyre and gimble in the wabe?

[Ryft]

Are you familiar with the word 'elenctic'? In a formal sense it means "serving to refute," and in a material sense it pertains to 'elenchus' or the Socratic technique of argument. Some of you may already know this, but I suspect that most of you have probably never seen the word before. I introduce this word here along with myself because it appropriately characterizes the manner in which I approach debate and philosophical discourse. I possess a strong commitment to critical thinking. I also live in North America, where hardly anyone practices critical thinking or knows what it is. Ergo, I spend a good deal of time refuting and/or correcting really bad arguments—i.e., elenctic discourse.

I am also an unmedicated Grammar Nazi. It's more about perspicuity than neurosis. (And I really do love the irony of that word, 'perspicuity'. Although it means "plain to the understanding, especially because of clarity and precision," the word itself is anything but plain or clear to the understanding. Delicious irony.) The reason I bring this up is because I have a tendency to clean up people's grammar when I quote them in my response. Please don't get offended; it's just my obsessive-compulsive nature.

Most people do not respond very well to insulting tones and belittling remarks. But me, I don't respond at all. If you get frustrated by the logical precision of my response or the fact that I have a philosophical vocabulary, dismissing me as a "blowhard" and "know-it-all" who uses "big words," don't be surprised when I completely ignore it and don't respond. This goes back to my strong commitment to critical thinking. I have read a lot of material on logic and critical thinking; none of them show much regard for name-calling and such. You can use such techniques, of course; that's entirely your choice. And this is mine.

I was an atheist until my mid-twenties, so I do know a thing or two about atheism. My dad was a militant atheist, such that he made Sam Harris seem like a kitten. But he was also deeply interested in Buddhism. My brother was also an atheist but, like me, less militant about it than dad was. And clinically addicted to World of Warcraft. My sister and stepmom were pagan, so-to-speak; their beliefs had some vague similarities to Wicca but were mostly a mixed bag of various New Age stuff (runes, candles, tarot cards and so forth). Their beliefs were highly individualized. And they were both lesbians. And I am framing all of this in past tense because it's been a long time since I lived at home. But there you have it, my home life. So even though the Genetic Fallacy is bad enough (look it up), now you have even more reason to leave it in your toolkit.

Oh, yeah, and I love debating. Love it.

[dagda]

Welcome. As you are a Christian I will ask-if you do not mind-in which denomination do you belong? What are your specific theological beliefs, and why did you become a Christian?

[Tiberius]

Your step-mother was a lesbian...yet she married your father, who I assume was a heterosexual male? Sorry, I just don't get that relationship!

Anyway, welcome to the forums. We also love debate!

[Ryft]

Welcome. As you are a Christian, I will ask—if you do not mind—in which denomination do you belong? What are your specific theological beliefs? And why did you become a Christian?

It's not that I mind. I don't, really. But I do think it's fundamentally irrelevant in an arena such as this. On a Christian message board it is often relevant (e.g., Roman Catholic versus Southern Baptist), but here the juxtaposition is not so finely sliced, being rather Atheism versus Theism. So I identified which 'theism' I am coming from. It is enough that I am representing a perspective from "orthodox Christianity" without getting into the complications of theological distinctives. Not only that, it would also invite the temptation of pigeon-holing me even further ("Oh he's X, so he must believe A, B, and C"), which would detract from otherwise rewarding conversation. I hope this can be seen as a legitimate and fair response.

As for why I became Christian? That is a deeply involved and entirely biographical issue. I suspect it would take an inordinate amount of space to adequately explain. It began with an introduction to logic, which led to critical thinking skills, which I then turned on my own atheistic worldview in a ruthless self-examination. It failed the test, in a humiliating number of areas. The more I repaired it for logical coherence and consistency, the closer I drew to Nihilism—which was abhorent to me, since that is a black hole with an event horizon at which reason, knowledge, science, etc., ceases to have any meaning. So I tossed everything and started from scratch, as it were. I went worldview shopping, looking for one that was coherent, consistent, and within which reason, knowledge, science, etc., can be legitimate, intelligible and have meaning. I know that this immediately raises a hundred different questions and objections for quite a few people here...

...which is why I said it would take an inordinate amount of space to adequately explain.

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Your step-mother was a lesbian...yet she married your father, who I assume was a heterosexual male? Sorry, I just don't get that relationship!

Anyway, welcome to the forums. We also love debate!

Yeah, it wasn't until after 13 years of marriage that she was finally able to admit to herself that she was lesbian. It was a struggle for her, if you can imagine, but she eventually had to be honest with herself—and then with my dad, who was emotionally torn but tried hard to be supportive. My sister followed a somewhat similar route but more condensed: from about 15 to 18 years of age, she lived as a heterosexual female; then she was bi-sexual for a couple of years; finally she, too, had to admit she was lesbian.

I've been heterosexual all the way through. Still am to this day. Heheheh.

[Darwinian]

Do mimsy atheists gyre and gimble in the wabe?

Aren't you strange? And to title your first post here with a cryptic insult what's more

Well, welcome along anyway and I hope we have many exultant and challenging debates. I shall resist the temptation to engage in a debate at this moment and leave you to establish yourself in these forums.

[Tiberius]

Mimsy atheists might, but most of them don't. I haven't met many mimsy atheists though.

[Darwinian]

It's a bit like me going to a Christian forum and titling a thread with "Why do pathetic Christians etc. etc."

The inference is clear don't you think?

Or maybe I'm just paranoid

[Tiberius]

Well mimsy means miserable + flimsy, so yes, if an atheist was miserable and flimsy, they might gyre and gimble in the wabe (which Wikipedia says is the equivalent of "go around in circles").

[fr0d0]

Welcome AA. Please highlight in red when you correct my grammar

I'm greatly looking forward to the unleashing of your logical justifications.

[Dotard]

...which is why I said it would take an inordinate amount of space to adequately explain.

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Bummer. As I always am highly interested to see what can possibly turn an Atheist -> Christian.

Being born and raised a xtian then later reconizing theism for what it is, it seems so simple too come to that conclusion. I can't for the life of me understand how one who reconizes theism for the unsupportable, non evidenced load of fabricated mythical tales it is to actually believing it's claims to be true. I can understand how maybe the emotionally weak may just adopt it to fill a 'empty' place within themselves (Waaa.. nobody loves me, I'll pretend the creator of the universe does) but not come to adopt an actual belief in any underlying reality of theistic claims.

So if you ever find the time, write it up and post it. The moderators can hide it for space saving and those of us interested in such poppycoc..... uh, interested in reading your, I'm sure most interesting, tale of conversion.

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Dotard hopes it includes tales of disembodied voices. I love stories with disembodied voices floating around. Oh oh oh, or tales of visions of lakes of fire complete with dragons and big creepy eyes peering over the horizon.