Decline of religion

[Hippea Fly Guy]

It's probably useful to be clear that our personal ideas about moral authority (and the contents of moral authority) are not interchangeable with the stated source of democratic authority.  Democracy, as the term suggests, draws it's authority from the consent of the governed.   While there may be a natural ethics - democracy is not in theory or practice limited to it.  We can democratically decide to say fuck nature (human or otherwise) and fuck facts too, while we're at it.  Intersubjectivity and aspiration is in principle good enough for democratic authority..regardless of whether or not our democratic decisions are fit, or well adapted.

I think it respects a fundamental fact of human nature which no system of organization can ignore (or ignores at it's own peril..if we prefer)...but we can sure as hell try!

I'm not arguing with your definition of democracy. It's still mob rule. We only differ in the level of inherent malevolence.

I have more to say about human nature, but let me channel Voltaire first. Would you mind defining your terms? I don't want to speculate. If you like I'll define mine as well.

Cheers

Hippea

[Belacqua]

Yes Homo Sapiens are social animals, dangerous ones. So are termites, lions, wolves and feral dogs. What makes our way better than theirs, other than the fact they don't shield themselves from the "cosmic" process or have society to protect them from mother nature. The second part is more profound than you realize, if you took the time to think about it. The "once they began living in groups" is illustrative.

Cheers,

Hippea

I think Freud got this right in Civilization and Its Discontents. (And I know that Freud is out of fashion now, but on this he's correct.)

First, human nature is an animal desire, which is amoral and unsatisfiable. Second, at the same time, human nature is the need to control certain parts of nature so as to live comfortably. We want the supermarkets full and the rivers safely in their banks, so we cooperate on these goals. 

The trouble is that the first part is in permanent conflict with the second part. This is irreconcilable, and can only be managed, not solved. We live with a tension between the two. 

I agree with you that empathy plays virtually no role here. It is the easiest thing in the world to switch off. In fact the pleasure people take in getting over on others is probably a more powerful force. 

What Freud doesn't address is what happens when we disguise our amoral animal desire as its opposite, the control of what threatens us. We can pretend that we are banding together in a selfless mission to protect life and liberty, when what we're really doing is theft and a power grab. 

So America's aggressions are dressed up as Spreading Democracy to the Oppressed. Protect the Homeland by stealing other people's resources and ruining their lives. And at the moment, the understandable need to protect against very real antisemitism is being weaponized to commit the greatest mass crime of our lifetimes.

[Hippea Fly Guy]

Well said. And Freud, Nietzsche , Jaynes are never passe

I only diverge slightly with respect to human nature being the need to isolate one self from natural threats. I apologize if I read more into that than you intended.
I see it more a behavioral disorder, laziness (a legitimate survival strategy when sufficiently opposed) if you will? Reinforced by self-domestication. The struggle is important unless you want 'Veal". It is intended. Comfort and safety do activate the reward center same as opiates.

Cheers,

Hippea

[Hippea Fly Guy]

Women definitively love a gardener. 

One need look no further than the Grain States of Samaria and the Akkadians for objective proof of that statement.

[brewer]

In the early years of societies, when knowledge was limited, religions had positive and negative effects mostly thru control and manipulation. AFAIC their time has passed, except maybe for people isolated from the rest of the world.

[Hippea Fly Guy]

Fair enough, share where it derives it's authority? There are no natural law parallels prohibitions or proscriptions for stealing, deception or killing these are all effective survival strategies rewarded in nature and anathema to democracy. Clearly it's not based on anything natural.

Nobody gets ahead because they're being murdered, raped, and stolen from as quickly as they murder, rape, and steal. It's a negative sum game where everybody has to sleep with one eye open.

Paleophyte, friend. Have a look around you. Please.

[Paleophyte]

Nobody gets ahead because they're being murdered, raped, and stolen from as quickly as they murder, rape, and steal. It's a negative sum game where everybody has to sleep with one eye open.

Paleophyte, friend. Have a look around you. Please.

Looked and seen. Zero murders committed by or against me. Zero murders in my community as a whole. A few minor crimes but there's always a few that think they can live outside of the rules. Typically ends poorly. Why? Do you live in some dystopian hellhole?

[Belacqua]

"The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have the chance of maltreating someone. To be able to destroy with good conscience, to be able to behave badly and call your bad behavior 'righteous indignation' -- this is the height of psychological luxury, the most delicious of moral treats."

-- Aldous Huxley

It seems to me that a lot of people get pleasure from attacking, with the intention of causing pain, but justify it with this kind of moral righteousness.

[Hippea Fly Guy]

Paleophyte, friend. Have a look around you. Please.

Looked and seen. Zero murders committed by or against me. Zero murders in my community as a whole. A few minor crimes but there's always a few that think they can live outside of the rules. Typically ends poorly. Why? Do you live in some dystopian hellhole?

Where we live is so deep in the Mobile Delta you wouldn't get close unless you knew precisely where to look and if you did know where to look you wouldn't see us unless we wanted you to. Generally squatting beside the Tensaw River digging tubers from the mud with my hands and gnawing on them raw. Ande ha-Sadeh
 
Where we pop in from time to time to; and pay our taxes, purchase our permits/licenses, file required forms and such, mostly catch up on that bullshit you civilized society folks force us at gunpoint to do, that is unquestionably a dystopian hellhole from sea to shining sea. When I’m here I lock the doors at night. I’m not afraid of much but my mother raised ugly kids, not stupid ones.

[Fake Messiah]

we pop in from time to time to; and pay our taxes, purchase our permits/licenses, file required forms and such, mostly catch up on that bullshit you civilized society folks force us at gunpoint to do, that is unquestionably a dystopian hellhole from sea to shining sea. When I’m here I lock the doors at night. I’m not afraid of much but my mother raised ugly kids, not stupid ones.

So what you are saying is that morality is based on Christianity, but that it's terrible and you can't get out of your house because you are fearing for your life and people are even trying to come into your house and kill you?