Atheism is a religion

[downbeatplumb]

I replied - well for non-collectors of stamps, you atheists sure spend an awful lot of time discussing your non-hobby.

I never used to care what delusions theists carried and then 9/11 happened showing what approriately motivated theists can do. After that I looked closer at religious and religion and shuddered at the power to corrupt and destroy became evident. America in particular is starting to look like a backward theocracy because of the influence of ignorant theists actively fighting against advancement and teaching of science.

Atheism may indeed be this belief that there isn't a higher power due to atheists perceived lack of evidence (or for whatever reasons), but it's still just that - a belief.

No it isnt its a position.

I dont think its reasonable to believe that something exists if there is bugger all evidence for it.

To believe in something you wish was true without any other reason makes you as bad as fairy believers or crackpot new-agers.

[amkerman]

you are conflating knowledge and perception. Just because you perceive something doesn't mean you "know" it. Perception does not dictate reality, or do you think it does?

[Ace Otana]

you are conflating knowledge and perception. Just because you perceive something doesn't mean you "know" it. Perception does not dictate reality, or do you think it does?

Never claimed I did. Care to quote me godboy?
I know perception does not affect reality. What the fuck are you getting at?!

[downbeatplumb]

I think he is suggesting that we could all be in the matrix or be the dream of a genius alien, like normal people talk about only when stoned or drunk.

In short he is acting as though his brain is impaired in some way.

[amkerman]

I can't make any sense of it. Not sure if you're trying to say 'things exist outside of our knowledge' or if you're trying to say something else. I can't make sense of what you're saying and I've debated many crazies.

The part I bolded was why I thought you were conflating perception and knowledge. I wasn't. I am saying exactly what you originally stated, "things which exist beyond your perception".

Let's just stick with the argument Ace. I didn't mean to offend you. Do you understand that part now?

---

I think he is suggesting that we could all be in the matrix or be the dream of a genius alien, like normal people talk about only when stoned or drunk.

In short he is acting as though his brain is impaired in some way.

I invite you to refute the argument I made based on Ace's original statement, "things which are beyond our perception are unknown" I will repost it shortly.

When I say "refute" I mean logically refute, not rescussitate your beliefs to me. Just saying. I've been getting a lot of that here. I honestly didn't expect it when I joined. I thought atheists were supposed to be logical for some reason. I thought that logic was the whole reason they didn't believe in God in the first place.

[Ace Otana]

I can't make any sense of it. Not sure if you're trying to say 'things exist outside of our knowledge' or if you're trying to say something else. I can't make sense of what you're saying and I've debated many crazies.

The part I bolded was why I thought you were conflating perception and knowledge. I wasn't. I am saying exactly what you originally stated, "things which exist beyond your perception".

Let's just stick with the argument Ace. I didn't mean to offend you. Do you understand that part now?

'Knowledge' can mean current understanding. Doesn't necessarily mean absolute knowledge. Perception gives a level of current understanding, like I can sense the texture of my coffee cup and detect it's weight.

Thing is, I still don't know what point it is you're trying to make. You've lost me.

[amkerman]

1. Everything that is beyond your perception is unknown.

2. You know you are perceiving a computer screen.

Therefore the computer screem is known within your perception of it.

1. The computer is known within your perception of it.

2. Things that are real exist beyond our perceptions of them

Therefore, if computer screen is real it exists beyond your perceptions of it.

1. If the computer screen is real it exists beyond your perceptions of it

2. Things that are beyond your perception are unknown

Therefore, whether the computer screen is real is unknown.

1. Whether the computer screen is real is unknown

2. Belief is defined as confidence in something not susceptible to rigourouse proof; confidence in the unknown.

Therefore, if you are confident the computer screen is real, you believe it is real. (You do not "know" it is real, we have already established that we can't know if things are are, because by definition if they are real they exist beyond perception, and things that are beyond perception are unknown)

[Blam!]

What a gibberish.

[amkerman]

Easy Ace. You've just stated it yourself.

You cannot have absolute knowledge of things, only levels of understanding. You can not know anything is real. You can have some understanding of how it could be real, but you can't know it. To say you "know" something with absolute certainty requires belief.

[Ace Otana]

Therefore, if you are confident the computer screen is real, you believe it is real.

My senses detect a computer screen. Based on the data I'm receiving from my senses, it's there. No belief.

(You do not "know" it is real, we have already established that we can't know if things are are, because by definition if they are real they exist beyond perception, and things that are beyond perception are unknown)

How are they beyond our perception (senses) if they are real. That is my question.