Hello atheistforum

[KichigaiNeko]

Here ya go revj

[brotherlylove]

I hope you aren't planning on becoming an apologist for the Christian doctrine because you are extremely lame at it.
Your so-called "subtle difference" here is utter nonsense.
I guess I'll have to teach you about your own religion.
In Christianity a "sin" is nothing other than disobedience of God. Therefore if unbelief is a "sin" all that means is that God is demanding that people must believe in him lest he will be exceedingly cruel and hurtful toward them.
So it's a religion about a mean hateful egotistical God who will be extremely hateful and hurtful toward people for merely not believing in him.
Your "subtle apologetic argument" here hasn't changed that fact at all.
The religion is about an egotistical God who unrighteous hates people for merely not believing in him and will condemn them to eternal damnation for this very thing.
Sorry to hear that you are in denial of what the religion actually teaches.

I am not in denial of what Christianity teaches, I am disputing your mischaracterization of it. If you had no sin, you wouldn't need Gods forgiveness. But everyone sins so therefore you're already in trouble before you believe or disbelieve. What John is saying is, if you don't believe you are condemned, because there is no way left to be forgiven for the sins you already have. Unbelief is simply one more sin on the pile.

What the bible says is that no one is really an unbeliever. That you're suppressing the truth due to sin.

I believe that I'm an eternal spiritual being because I have always intuitively felt that this is the case. It's strictly a "intuitive belief", I can't prove it logically. In terms of logic I can only offer reasons why I feel that it is rationally plausible. I could be wrong. I confess that to myself and to the entire world. This is why I list myself as an "Agnostic Spiritualist". I do not have irrefutable knowledge of this spiritual essence to reality. I'm just personally confident on an intuitive level that this is the true state of affairs.

Well, what do you base your intuitions on?

In fact, while I'm confessing truths allow me to also confess the truth that I cannot honestly rationalize the God portrayed in the Hebrew fables. When I tell you that I see it as being a portrait of an utterly stupid, hateful , and overbearingly ignorant picture of God, that is the truth. So since this is how I honestly feel would you have me lie to this God and pretend that I believe in him just in the hopes of pacifying his anxiety to hurt me for not believing in him? What the hell kind of a God would that be? My only hope for salvation would be to lie to this God and pretend that the ancient Hebrew bull shit makes sense? You've got to be kidding me.

What exactly is it that informs this picture of God that you have?

No. It would simply be making a statement about my beliefs concerning human knowledge in general. I also believe that I can know with absolute certainty that the biblical portrait of God cannot possibly be true (as it is described in the scriptures). To me it's obvious that it can't possibly be true (as written) because the God that it portrays would necessarily need to be a hateful cold-blooded ass. And that flies in the very face of what the God is supposed to be like. So the stories (as written) cannot possibly be true. They simply contradict themselves at every turn of the page. If there is any spiritual truth in the biblical writings at all, it is very sparsely scattered between mostly bull shit. I also personally believe that the rumors about the character of Jesus were sparked by the life of a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva, but that's a whole other story.

Do you believe truth is relative or absolute? Not that I am agreeing with your assesment, but how would you know what God is "supposed" to be like? What are the contradictions that you see and do you not believe in the historical existence of Jesus?

Well, my spiritual philosophy is pretty deep. It would be impossible to convey it to you in posts as a practical matter. But to try to sum it up in a nutshell, I take it to mean that there exists a spiritual essence to life and we are it. It seems pretty simple to me. The only place it gets complex is if you are going to demand a lengthy description of how I think of spirit. But truthfully even that should ultimately be quite easy. In short, spirit is unknowable. What more needs to be said? This would be like me asking you to describe to me the true nature of the biblilcal God. Like as if you should be able to do that.

Something more needs to be said, I think; could you describe how you think of spirit? You can also some aspects of Gods nature from the bible, such as being all-knowing, all-powerful, omni-benevolent, etc.

Now let's talk about your testimony a bit. I'd like to share with you some of my impression on that. In the OP you have stated the following: Then later you replied to me stating the following:Now let me tell you something. I was personally born and raised as a Christian, and I almost became a preacher before I realized how utterly idiotic the religion truly is. So I know quite a bit about it.

What caused you to reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

But look at what you are claiming above: You are basically claiming that you did not go to Chrisitanity because you were seeking out God. Nor did you go because you had already believed in this God. But instead you went to Jesus Christ the Almighty as a TEST to tempt the Lord they God to prove himself to you.

No, I was seeking out God at the time.

And according to you he went along with your plan. After you had given yourself over him as a TEST to see if he was real he came into your life, fixed up all your petty problems, and filled you with joy to PROVE to you that he does indeed exist. And now you are a passionate BELIEVER because Jesus came into your life and proved himself to you passing your TEST. Personally I don't think that's how it's supposed work in any case

I came to Christianity because I felt led there, so I went to church to see whether I was mistaken; that was the test. I figured if God wanted me He would let me know. After a few services, I felt called to give my life to Jesus. I wasn't asking God to prove it; what I did was put faith in God that His claims were true. My belief in God is affirmed moment to moment; Since I received the Holy Spirit, I always experience the presence of God.

But to each their own. I'm glad that you got something out of your challenge to Jesus. But you're definitely not going to sell the religion to me. I personally don't believe that you even remotely understand what the religion is about.

I have a pretty good idea what Christianity is about. Since you were to be a pastor, you must surely understand the scriptures very well. Take your best shot..I love a good challenge.

[reverendjeremiah]

I feel much better Kich...thanks

[Epimethean]

"What I didn't understand, and what many of you probably don't understand, is that God does provide evidence of His existence."

There's a sale on swampfront property in Yuma, by the way. You oughta get in on some o' that.

[Sciwoman]

The reason we ARE agnostics and atheists is BECAUSE we know more about religion than religious people, brotherlylove. You don't seem to realize that many of us use to BE religious people. We've given over years of our lives to praying, studying the bible, teaching, preaching, witnessing, and all the rest of it - until we took a good, hard look at it and realized it was all stuff and nonsense (to put it mildly). There is NOTHING you are saying to us that we haven't heard before, in volumes.

And don't you dare come back with the old, tired, worn-out lines of 'oh, you weren't a real christian' or 'you didn't give it enough of a chance' or 'you were never exposed to the real word of god,' because I will throw up (and maybe hunt you down to beat you with a bible). We've heard those condescending phrases trip from the lips of some smug, self-satisfied, holier-than-thou, judgmental, brainless sheep more times than we can count. They are the words of someone calling us liars and then having the gall to say they know more about what we thought and felt than we do.

It is time for all you god-botherers to get together and come up with a new script - this one is old and tiresome.

[Abracadabra]

I am not in denial of what Christianity teaches, I am disputing your mischaracterization of it.

Sorry, your the one in denial of what it actually states. You're just trying to make excuses for it.

Well, what do you base your intuitions on?

What are you talking about?

Intuition is intuition. It's not based on anything. It just is what it is.

What exactly is it that informs this picture of (the biblical) God that you have?

The Bible?

What are the contradictions that you see and do you not believe in the historical existence of Jesus?

I could write a book on that as large as the Bible itself. There are far too many to mention. Plus you haven't even shown that you are worth talking with. You've already lied to me (see below). And you refuse to acknowledge when I point out errors in your thinking.

However, just for kicks I'll post the following contradictions here:

Jesus didn't even agree with the teachings of the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham instructed people to judge one another and to stone those who are judged to be sinners to death.

Jesus rejected that immoral bull crap and taught people not to judge one another and not to stone people to death for being sinners.

Add to that the fact that this God is supposed to be unchanging and you have a totally irresolvable contradiction.

Same is true concerning the teachings of seeking revenge. The God of Abraham taught people to seek revenge as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

Jesus taught people not to seek revenge and to turn the other cheek and forgive people.

Again, if Jesus was supposed to be the son of the God of Abraham even he obviously didn't agree with his own Father.

Let's face it, the stories are absurd.

Something more needs to be said, I think; could you describe how you think of spirit? You can also some aspects of Gods nature from the bible, such as being all-knowing, all-powerful, omni-benevolent, etc.

I accept the premise that spirit is unknowable. I don't pretend to know what spirit is like.

And as you point out the bible claims that it's God is omni-benvolent, yet at the same time it claims that this God has set things up so that the vast majority of the souls he creates end up in an eternal hell-fire of damnation and suffering.

(Add that to the list of blatant contradictions please)

What caused you to reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

I didn't. I simply realized that "Jesus" or the person who sparked those rumors (if such a person even existed at all) could not possibly have been "The Christ" (or the son of the God of Abraham, etc).

So there was nothing to 'reject'.

No, I was seeking out God at the time.

Well this is where you are lying to me.

You're either lying now, or you were lying before when you said:

I wasn't seeking out God to clean up my life; I was exploring Christianity to test its truth claims.

So there's no point in talking with you anymore. I can't believe anything you have to say. Evidently you'll say anything at any moment in a desperate attempt to get out of ruts that you had previously dug yourself into.

I came to Christianity because I felt led there, so I went to church to see whether I was mistaken; that was the test. I figured if God wanted me He would let me know. After a few services, I felt called to give my life to Jesus. I wasn't asking God to prove it; what I did was put faith in God that His claims were true. My belief in God is affirmed moment to moment; Since I received the Holy Spirit, I always experience the presence of God.

See now you're changing your hole story around.

I have a pretty good idea what Christianity is about. Since you were to be a pastor, you must surely understand the scriptures very well. Take your best shot..I love a good challenge.

I'm done with you buddy. You're not worth talking to. You outright lie, and clearly you'll continue to lie in an attempt to peddle your religion at all cost.

IMHO, you're pathetic.

[brotherlylove]

Sorry, your the one in denial of what it actually states. You're just trying to make excuses for it.

If you want to dispute the argument I just made, feel free. Otherwise, this statement has no basis.

Intuition is intuition. It's not based on anything. It just is what it is.

It has some kind of basis, obviously. If you don't want to share your belief, that is fine.

I could write a book on that as large as the Bible itself. There are far too many to mention. Plus you haven't even shown that you are worth talking with. You've already lied to me (see below).

However, just for kicks I'll post the following contradictions here: Jesus didn't even agree with the teachings of the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham instructed people to judge one another and to stone those who are judged to be sinners to death. Jesus rejected that immoral bull crap and taught people not to judge one another and not to stone people to death for being sinners. Add to that the fact that this God is supposed to be unchanging and you have a totally irresolvable contradiction.

First of all, when it says God is unchanging, it is talking about His nature, not how He acts in the world. That He is for instance, perfectly good, which will not change, but how He demonstrates that goodness is perfectly free to change. Even a cursory read of the bible shows that God changed His mind on quite a number of things depending on how people behaved.

Second, the covenants were changed when Jesus fulfilled the mosaic law on the cross. That is what instituted the New Covenant. New Covenant means new laws; it's the law of Christ, not the law of Moses. This is why God said this in Jeremiah 31:31-33

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And this is what the New Covenant is like, that God gives us a new heart and spirit when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Same is true concerning the teachings of seeking revenge. The God of Abraham taught people to seek revenge as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Jesus taught people not to seek revenge and to turn the other cheek and forgive people.Again, if Jesus was supposed to be the son of the God of Abraham even he obviously didn't agree with his own Father.Let's face it, the stories are absurd.

Again, the mosaic law was for Israel, and Jesus fulfilled that. It isn't a disagreement; one set of laws was for israel, the new set was for the whole world. This knowledge is elementary, really. How could you be a Christian and not understand the difference between the old and new covenants?

And you refuse to acknowledge when I point out errors in your thinking.

If you're referring to the scripture you quoted, I rebutted your argument and you now have no counter argument. The error is on your side, not mine.

I accept the premise that spirit is unknowable. I don't pretend to know what spirit is like.

You have a spirit and you don't know what it is like to have one? Why would it be unknowable?

And as you point out the bible claims that it's God is omni-benvolent, yet at the same time it claims that this God has set things up so that the vast majority of the souls he creates end up in an eternal hell-fire of damnation and suffering.

God set it up to give everyone the choice for good and evil. Unfortunately, more choose evil than not. His offer of salvation is available to everyone.

I didn't. I simply realized that "Jesus" or the person who sparked those rumors (if such a person even existed at all) could not possibly have been "The Christ" (or the son of the God of Abraham, etc).So there was nothing to 'reject'.

As a Christian, didn't you love God? How did you get from loving God and wanting to be a preacher to not believing Jesus is the Messiah?

Well this is where you are lying to me. You're either lying now, or you were lying before when you said: So there's no point in talking with you anymore. I can't believe anything you have to say. Evidently you'll say anything at any moment in a desperate attempt to get out of ruts that you had previously dug yourself int

I think you've misunderstood me. You said that I was seeking out God because I was a drug addict trying to clean up my life. My answer "I wasn't seeking out God to clean up my life; I was exploring Christianity to test its truth claims" was not precluding that I was exploring Christianity because I was seeking God. Do you see the semi-colon there? That indicates that I was elaborating on the original statement of how/why I was seeking out God. Why else would I want to become a Christian?

See now you're changing your hole story around I'm done with you buddy. You're not worth talking to. You outright lie, and clearly you'll continue to lie in an attempt to peddle your religion at all cost. IMHO, you're pathetic.

If you want to backtrack from the conversation, that is up to you, just admit to it and don't do it under false pretenses.

---

The reason we ARE agnostics and atheists is BECAUSE we know more about religion than religious people, brotherlylove. You don't seem to realize that many of us use to BE religious people. We've given over years of our lives to praying, studying the bible, teaching, preaching, witnessing, and all the rest of it - until we took a good, hard look at it and realized it was all stuff and nonsense (to put it mildly). There is NOTHING you are saying to us that we haven't heard before, in volumes.

And don't you dare come back with the old, tired, worn-out lines of 'oh, you weren't a real christian' or 'you didn't give it enough of a chance' or 'you were never exposed to the real word of god,' because I will throw up (and maybe hunt you down to beat you with a bible). We've heard those condescending phrases trip from the lips of some smug, self-satisfied, holier-than-thou, judgmental, brainless sheep more times than we can count. They are the words of someone calling us liars and then having the gall to say they know more about what we thought and felt than we do.

It is time for all you god-botherers to get together and come up with a new script - this one is old and tiresome.

Hey Sciwoman I don't recall saying anything like that. I am simply interested to find out what went wrong. Specifically, why you stopped loving Jesus Christ and then rejected Him. What was it that changed your mind and heart?

[Epimethean]

Your problem is the fact that you think something went wrong at all.

[Phil]

Your problem is the fact that you think something went wrong at all.

Just tell the trollish moron that atheism is myth understood.

[Handprint]

Your problem is the fact that you think something went wrong at all.

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