OK Christians. your chance. Convince me of God.

[TaraJo]

I gotta believe, I gotta kiss his ass and I gotta follow a few hundred rules many of which don't make sense with zero evidence that he actually exists. I don't buy it.

Neither do I nor any other bible believing Christians. For Christ scarfice has freed us from the law or the "Few Hundred rules" as our only means to finding salvation.

Then you might want to tell that to all the Christian haters who are using Leviticus to condemn homosexuals.

So, does anyone want to explain why that second metaphor seems more comparable to Christian God?

In reality it doesn't it just seem more accurate to fit your understanding of God and Christianity.

Them you explain how you see my hypothetical sibling as being different from your hypothetical deity.

So, you're saying God is an almighty narcissist? Love me or I hate you? It sure seems that way because if you don't accept his love, you get tortured for eternity.

If you do not want to be with God for eternity praising and worshiping Him wouldn't being forced into doing that for all eternity be a kin to eternal torture? As it is now you get to choose to either be with God or seperated from Him.

I'm not saying I don't want to; I'm saying I'm not going to waste my very limited time on earth worshiping a god that doesn't even exist and I'm looking for evidence that any worship I do would court towards something.

The big problem there is still pretty much the same, though: if god actually wanted someone to love him, he might do something, anything, to show that he even actually exists.

Why do you believe He doesn't?
He makes a very specific set of promises to those who ask seek and knock for Him.

I haven't heard of that promise; where did you hear about it? Did you get those promises from the same book that says the earth is no more than 6,000 years old and has been used to defend the idea that the earth is flat? Please, tell me, what credibly source gives you promises from the almighty?

So, again, let's use a little metaphor here, shall we? Let's say my parents had another baby, before I was born, this one that I don't know about and one whose existence isn't in any historical record like family picture albums, or medical records, right? Let's say further that this child leaves and I never see him or her for 30 years, right? Would I be expected to love a brother/sister who, as far as I know doesn't even exist?

But would you purposly ignore or even hate her just because she never sought you out?

Based on that alone, no. If she claimed to be all powerful, I might be pissed at her for having a world that's this fucked up, but that's beside the point and I'd be even more pissed if she was planning on torturing me for eternity if I didn't believe in her after she gave me no evidence that she exists.

However, the fact remains, I don't so much hate god as I don't believe god exists. How can I hate something I don't think exists? That would be like hating Santa or the Easter Bunny.

Maybe you can, in a "you're my sibling so I have to love you way" or "I love all people way" but on a personal level, no, you can't.

God does not expect this. He tells us that all we have to do is have the faith of a mustard seed and He will move heaven and earth for us. It is from this working together that true love is built. just like it would be with your unknown sister. IF you had the smallest amount of faith in the story of your long lost sister and sought her out your meeting would be just the start of a bond that would not easily be broken.

And that turns into a very 'blame the victim' form of circular logic. We sincerely pray to god and when nothing happens, if we realize god did nothing, there was no response because we lack faith. That's a pretty big flaw, right there if you ask me: the only way I can realize god fucked up is if I lack faith, in which case god isn't going to respond anyway.

But you don't reject this sibling, either. I mean, fuck, all it would take is a picture of an older brother or meeting my big sister or something like that and, yeah, I'll be on board.

Then simply ask God for the Picture He promises in Luke 11. Then activly seek it out and don't quit till you get what you have been asking and seeking after.

Sorry, your holy book has already been demonstrably false way too many times for me to trust it as evidence. I want something that will hold up in a lab; something that can withstand criticism.

And that's the point: God has given me just as much evidence that he exists as said hypothetical sibling: none! So why should I believe in one any more than I do the other?

What have you asked for? I remember you telling God that He should seek

I'm open on what evidence god can use with me. It still shouldn't be very difficult for an all powerful being. I mean, if god is all knowing, he knows exactly what evidence would convince me of his existence and if he's all powerful, whatever it takes to convince me would be easily within his power. The fact that no sign has been given leads me to believe one of the following:

1) God doesn't know what it would take to convince me of his existence. In this case, god is not all knowing (or all powerful, since an all powerful being would be able to know everything)

2) God lacks the power to convince myself of his existence; and since I'm being pretty open ended with what types of proof I'll accept, that's a pretty weak deity out there

3) God doesn't care whether I believe in him or not. Or, also likely, god wants me to be an atheist. At best, god cares so little for my worship that he's unwilling to lift a finger to reveal himself to me (and, again, if this being is supposed to be all powerful, that's not going to take much effort). Either way, it's all the same for me.

[Drich]

I'm open on what evidence god can use with me. It still shouldn't be very difficult for an all powerful being. I mean, if god is all knowing, he knows exactly what evidence would convince me of his existence and if he's all powerful, whatever it takes to convince me would be easily within his power.

That's just it. God is not going to 'chase' after you. God has commanded that we Seek Him. Meaning He is not going to run around seeking us. Now if we do seek Him out as outlined in Luke 11 then yes He knows what you need to obtain and sustain a proper belief, and you have been promised a Measure of what you need to start with. Just understand God isn't going to run you down and do a very specific magic routine in order to win your favor.

If you want to know God then you will humble yourself and approach Him as He has commanded. It is only then that you will be given what you need to have your 'proof.'

[Cyberman]

God has commanded that we Seek Him.

Commanded? What happened to free will? Plus, if this god wants us to find it, to the point of ordering us, why hide in the first place?

On the other hand:

---

Ding!

Maybe this god is just a child, like Trelayne the Squire of Gothos from Star Trek or Melllvar from the Futurama Star Trek episode, and we're just its toys... maybe, hopefully soon, its parents will come and call it in for its tea and apologise to the entire human race for their naughty son..!

---

[Mystic]

---

Ding!

Maybe this god is just a child, like Trelayne the Squire of Gothos from Star Trek or Melllvar from the Futurama Star Trek episode, and we're just its toys... maybe, hopefully soon, its parents will come and call it in for its tea and apologise to the entire human race for their naughty son..!

---

That was seriously hilarious.

[TaraJo]

That's just it. God is not going to 'chase' after you. God has commanded that we Seek Him.

Tried it. Found nothing. Felt like I was running in a hamster exercise wheel. I no longer want to waste my time and energy and getting nothing in return (not to mention other requests made of me; not tithing is saving me some good moolah).

Meaning He is not going to run around seeking us.

Why would an all powerful being have to seek anything? Am I the only person in this thread who has even a slight idea what the vast potential is behind anything or anyone who claims to be omnipotent?

Now if we do seek Him out as outlined in Luke 11

What did I tell you about your silly book of mythology? Why don't you quote a book that can hold up to critical thinking?

If you want to know God then you will humble yourself and approach Him as He has commanded. It is only then that you will be given what you need to have your 'proof.'

That's just the thing, buddy; I did everything you asked and when I was down and out, when I needed love and support more than any other time, I felt more alone than ever before. No, there wasn't any god there to comfort me. Hell, my teddy bear was more of a comfort because at least I could hug it and I can't hug god. Why would I ever worship a god who has less power than a stuffed animal?

Here's the really ironic thing; I was going through that pain and suffering and I was looking for theological answers to how these things could be allowed to happen and that's when I first started finding atheist sites online. If I believed in divine guidance, I would believe god led me to those sites.

[FallentoReason]

No other religious literature has prophecies so distinct, so specific that have been fulfilled in the way that Christ has fulfilled the Hebrew Bible.

Because you are quite new, and actually quite level-headed, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on these prophecies that Christ fulfilled when on the cross:

Psalm 22:1
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Mark 15:34
...my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
**************************************
Psalm 22:7
All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads.

Mark 15:29
Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads...
**************************************
Psalm 22:18
They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.

Mark 15:24
And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get.
**************************************

Hopefully you would have gathered that they're not prophecies at all but random details of 'history'.

Speaks for itself really.

[Drich]

Commanded? What happened to free will?

Isn't it obvious? your freedom lies in you ablity to ignore this command.

Plus, if this god wants us to find it, to the point of ordering us, why hide in the first place?

Because if God's glory was completely and irrefutably known, then simple self preservation would prevent you from choosing God based on how you truly feel.

---

Tried it. Found nothing.

Actually you didn't. Not as it is described in Luke 11 which was the command.

Why would an all powerful being have to seek anything?

Exactly! So why would He seek you out by proving Himself to you through whatever series proofs you specifically need to see? God is in a position to issue commands, which He has done by commanding us to Ask, Seek and Knock for Him.

Am I the only person in this thread who has even a slight idea what the vast potential is behind anything or anyone who claims to be omnipotent?

Then how do you balance this knoweledge with the fact that you are waiting for God to show you the 'proof' you were looking for?

That's just the thing, buddy; I did everything you asked and when I was down and out, when I needed love and support more than any other time, I felt more alone than ever before.

I can most assuredly say you did not follow the pattern outlined in Luke 11. For the last part of ask seek knock seems to be the most important part of this command. We must knock as the persistent neighbor did in the parable. Meaning there can not be a time limit in which we are willing to knock for God. By putting a time limit on God, disqualifies us from ever knowing Him. For who are we to insist that God meet our needs on our time tables? Your time table shows that you have not humbled yourself before God and allowed Him to Lift you Up.

Here's the really ironic thing; I was going through that pain and suffering and I was looking for theological answers to how these things could be allowed to happen and that's when I first started finding atheist sites online. If I believed in divine guidance, I would believe god led me to those sites.

Indeed. (that is impart the reason I am here) I believe that God uses sites like this to help tear down and question all of the bad theology and unsound doctrines we accumilate over our life times. We have been commanded in 1 thess 5:21 to question all things and to hold on to what is good. But for some of us respect for 'religion' and respect for God can not be seperated, so God in an effort to seperate the wheat from the chaff allows the wheat to be threshed seperating the grain from the stalk. Durning this process the stalk is destroyed and the wheat kernal is saved.

By spending your time here you can question everything about religion and yourself. what will determine your fate is will you hold on to what is Good? or will you simply use this place to cast off God forever? Are you a wheat kernal or Wheat Stalk? Time will tell you where your heart lies..

[LastPoet]

Isn't it obvious? your freedom lies in you ablity to ignore this command.

The command that you and your fellow religionists came up with? That's laughable. You dumbfucks pretend to know what the supreme being wants? Based on what? a putrid book? Because your mommy and pappy told you so?

Because if God's glory was completely and irrefutably known, then simple self preservation would prevent you from choosing God based on how you truly feel.

Ah the old millionaire-that-wants-to-marry gambit. Does the partner wants to marry for the 'money' or wants to marry for love. You lose Drich, if god truly wanted for us to be 'good' for ourselves, then why interfere by sending warning? Why interfere wit our free will? Why even try? All you know about your god is at face value.

[Drich]

if god truly wanted for us to be 'good' for ourselves,

God knows we can't be good for ourselves, that is why He sent His Son to die for us..

then why interfere by sending warning?

Appearently His Righteousness Demanded it.

Why interfere wit our free will?

It doesn't as you clearly demonstrate. In that you can ignore said "warning."

Why even try?

For the people who would seek Him out if given the oppertunity.

All you know about your god is at face value.

All i know about God is what I can comperhend from what He has revealed. Which is very little, but appearently it is more than you know

[TaraJo]

*sigh* I really wish you would quit telling me to read your silly book of mythology for instruction. If this keeps up, I'm going to start telling you to read Lord of the Rings or Dr. Seuse for instruction.

Tried it. Found nothing.

Actually you didn't. Not as it is described in Luke 11 which was the command.

Ok, let's look up Luke 11, and for the sake of argument we'll also pretend we're in a universe where that book has credibility. Sound good?

Verses 1-13 were the 'seek, ask, knock.' I spent years doing that. The only way you can say otherwise is to pull out some 'blame the victim' bullshit.

14-28 talks about curing a mute man by casting a demon out.

Now, pay attention here Drich, because your own Bible is about to say Yahweh is full of shit, ok?

Verses 29-32 pretty much ask for blind faith. However, immediately after that, we get verses 33-36, which basically tell us that if a city is a shining example for everyone, it shouldn't be hidden but exalted and shown to everyone as an example. Which does sound reasonable. However, what do we get from your god? A deity who claims to be a shining example of perfection who keeps himself hidden away so that nobody has any solid evidence that he ever existed. The god who wrote verses 29-32 doesn't follow his own commands on verses 33-36, y'know.

Then the rest of the verse is about Jesus, first, ignoring modern practices on cleanliness by not washing his hands before eating and then bashing the pharisees when they call him on it. Good job Jesus and I hope you're never employed at a restaurant I eat at.

Why would an all powerful being have to seek anything?

Exactly! So why would He seek you out by proving Himself to you through whatever series proofs you specifically need to see? God is in a position to issue commands, which He has done by commanding us to Ask, Seek and Knock for Him.

Am I the only person in this thread who has even a slight idea what the vast potential is behind anything or anyone who claims to be omnipotent?

Then how do you balance this knoweledge with the fact that you are waiting for God to show you the 'proof' you were looking for?

Because he's the all powerful one, not me. I can't force myself to believe something I can't find evidence for.

That's just the thing, buddy; I did everything you asked and when I was down and out, when I needed love and support more than any other time, I felt more alone than ever before.

I can most assuredly say you did not follow the pattern outlined in Luke 11. For the last part of ask seek knock seems to be the most important part of this command. We must knock as the persistent neighbor did in the parable. Meaning there can not be a time limit in which we are willing to knock for God. By putting a time limit on God, disqualifies us from ever knowing Him. For who are we to insist that God meet our needs on our time tables? Your time table shows that you have not humbled yourself before God and allowed Him to Lift you Up.

So, what you're saying is god will always respond and if he doesn't respond it's just because I didn't give him enough time?

Well, I have a similar policy. I'm going to give you a million dollars; all you have to do is go without eating for a while. Now, exactly how long you have to go without eating is kinda open ended on my part, but you go on and have faith and I'll answer..... eventually.

How long do you think you can go without food before giving up on my million dollar offer?