You and I

[Last_ Ray]

theVOID wrote : And why should be think the Qu'ran is to be believed?

Thanks for this wonderful question .
To prove that the Quran is the Word of Allah, I do not have to indulge into futile discussions or philosophical dialect. I have at my disposal a living material evidence which is the Quran itself.
assuming that the Quran is not the word of Allah or not true :
is it possible for a human being who can not read or write and lived in the seventh century write such a book?
is it possible for a human being who can not read or write who lived in the seventh century speak about a modern sciences in [ universe , human body , animal , insects , ………… ] and the modern sciences proved his sayings ?
or does there exist till today any book that is claimed to match the Quran?

Some quick notes about Quran :
1- The holy Quran speaks to the minds :[Is he who knoweth that what is revealed unto thee from thy Lord is the truth like him who is blind? But only men of understanding heed; ] Surah 13 :19 , inshaa Allah we will see that .

2- The holy Quran Stimulates human to discover the beginning of creation : [Say (O Muhammad): Travel in the land and see how He originated creation, then Allah bringeth forth the later growth. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things. ] Surah 29 :20

3- the holy Quran is empty of mistakes and contradictions : [Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity. ]Surah 4:82 .

4- the holy Quran is challenging humankind : ((Say: Verily, though mankind and the jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers one of another. )) Surah 17:88

5- The revelation of the Quran by Arabic Language , what you will read is only a translations which not the original book whatever man did , his translation will not reach to the level of the original Quran in Arabic : [(192)And lo! it is a revelation of the Lord of the Worlds, (193) Which the True Spirit hath brought down (194) Upon thy heart, that thou mayst be (one) of the warners, (195) In plain Arabic speech. (199) ] Surah 26

Thorough examination of the Quran shows that all elements [ word , verse , Surah , chapter , grammar and rhetoric ] was selected and phrased in the most appropriate manner to fulfill the most precise meaning and most effective impact, whether cognitive, psychological, passionate, or phonic, on the reader or listener. The Quran challenges mankind, Arabs and non-Arabs, to the end of time, to produce anything like or compared to itself.

my respect

[Minimalist]

With all due respect....which is to say "none".... every religion has the same line of shit about its so-called 'holy' books.

You know, my friend, had you been born in Alabama you would be the type to make the same kind of silly rationalizations about the King James version of the bible.

You parrot a cultural imperative. Nothing more.

[Darwinian]

We've already established in this forum that the Qu'ran contains NO information that was not known about by scholars at the time.

Most of the stuff in it that you purport to be science is in fact vague and ambiguous and can only be interpreted after the event. The rest was known about hundreds of years earlier, mostly by the ancient Greeks.

All you and your kind are doing is to interpret the text to fit the facts.

[Last_ Ray]

We've already established in this forum that the Qu'ran contains NO information that was not known about by scholars at the time.

Most of the stuff in it that you purport to be science is in fact vague and ambiguous and can only be interpreted after the event. The rest was known about hundreds of years earlier, mostly by the ancient Greeks.

All you and your kind are doing is to interpret the text to fit the facts.

Well my friend I was not here , when you established these information about Quran !!!!

[Minimalist]

Watch out, Darwin.....this one thinks he's "different."

[AngelaRachnid]

What does that mean - not humbling yourself?

Well i can understand why this might be difficult for you to understand believing in a superior being, but I personally do not bow down or regard anyone automatically superior to me, i regard us all as equalls, and i think it really sad that some people (christians, muslims jews etc) feel they have to humble themselves to imams, rabis, preists etc because of the bronze age myth they believe.

You think the person you're talking to causes more suffering than you?

No go back and read again i was hypothesizing

You mention gays but not people who have sex with animals - why? And if it is fine/right for a man to act womanly - or a woman manly, is it also fine/right for an adult to act like a child?

If you want to have sex with animals go ahead (i suppose they cant tell on you as opposed to children) just don't let the Animal Rights brigade catch you, I didnt mention it as i dint think you were that way inclined, sorry if i offended you by not including you,

well men never grow up they are always acting like children.

Does that mean you're arrogant (find yourself to be superior to others in general, religious people or...)?

JESUS HFNC how could he live the same life as me unless he was my siamese twin, he has never drunk as much as me, done the same drugs, shagged the same people (though some could be probable) never been in the same trouble as me, never went to the same school as me etc etc he has not went through the same life experiences as me.

To go through the hell that was my school days, he probably wouldnt stand it (bullying = character building in my days) , even with his imaginary friend, it drove me to suicide twice failed obviously

You seem to want people to think you're tough, and you may be...but you want others to think it of you too.

Nope in fact i am not, I had a fuckin hard life as a kid and for some self righteous god botherer to come and insinuate that our lives have been similar

You apparently haven't noticed the harm-in/danger-of arrogance, pride, or self-righteousness, which means you are as backwards as the Pharisees.

At least i am not as backwards as to believe in in a bronze age myth, and be as arrogant that your faith allows you to be.

Love n Stuff

A

---

I do not have to indulge into futile discussions or philosophical dialect.

Is that not what you are doing now?

is it possible for a human being who can not read or write and lived in the seventh century write such a book?

Well a convicted fraudster called Joesph Smith done the a same thing in the 1800s and now has a mass following of believers....................mormons

is it possible for a human being who can not read or write who lived in the seventh century speak about a modern sciences in [ universe , human body , animal , insects , ………… ] and the modern sciences proved his sayings ?

The ancient Greeks

or does there exist till today any book that is claimed to match the Quran?

Well since it is based on ancient Jewish scripture, then the ancient Jewish scriptures for a start, but even they are not as subversive as the Quran

3- the holy Quran is empty of mistakes and contradictions :

So which is it 72 virgins or white raisins

4- the holy Quran is challenging humankind :

it is more like threatening mankind, if you don't believe you die

The Quran challenges mankind, Arabs and non-Arabs, to the end of time, to produce anything like or compared to itself.

Ever heard of Enid Blyton?

my respect

A

[Violet]

Well i can understand why this might be difficult for you to understand believing in a superior being, but I personally do not bow down or regard anyone automatically superior to me, i regard us all as equalls, and i think it really sad that some people (christians, muslims jews etc) feel they have to humble themselves to imams, rabis, preists etc because of the bronze age myth they believe.

But nobody is equal... because everyone is different I regard people on an individual basis, built atop or cutting away from the bare respect of noting their existence We all have our individual strengths, weaknesses, personalities, likes, dislike... our individual state of existence. A doctor is a specialist just as an assassin is a specialist... and I can tell you right now which I would rather have performing surgery on me ^_^

If you want to have sex with animals go ahead (i suppose they cant tell on you as opposed to children) just don't let the Animal Rights brigade catch you, I didnt mention it as i dint think you were that way inclined, sorry if i offended you by not including you,

well men never grow up they are always acting like children.

Humans are animals. The problem with having sex with other species... is that the other specie probably doesn't want to have sex with you. So you would not be consenting partners, and therefore you have raped the other creature. Nobody ever has the right to rape.

Men aren't so different from women... and women aren't so different from transsexual m/f, hermaphrodites, intersex individuals of any sort, indeterminate sex, and no sex individuals The truth is that we don't so much 'grow up'... as we do gain experience and wisdom

[Last_ Ray]

then the believers lived their life same as you lived ,

NO I live my life to the full, I do not humble myself before anyone - especially not a man made myth, I chose my superiors on their merit, If there is a god that gives life (which there is not) then i would think that a god would respect the person more who lived that life and tried to get as much into it as possible, as opposed to the one who wasted that life causing suffering to others he had given life to man woman or gay, believe me you have NEVER lived a life the same as mine....you haven't got the guts

What is the full ?
You passed what we passed , and both of us lived the moments of [ sadness , happiness , pain , fear ,……. ] .
But if you meant by the full life : that you do not have in your dictionary the word [ forbidden ] then you are unable to control yourself , all you are looking is to feed your hunger with any desire wants , and the result of this your body is the leader and the controller on your mind

((Hast thou seen him who maketh his desire his god, and Allah sendeth him astray purposely, and sealeth up his hearing and his heart, and setteth on his sight a covering? Then who will lead him after Allah (hath condemned him)? Will ye not then heed? )) Surah 45 .

I do not humble myself before anyone -
You are contradict yourself , when you said : (I earned about 200 tonight ) , money is clearly your god . you are humbling yourself for it . you do not care with the way as long as you are going to get it . and maybe you will steal or kill to get your god . it is the highest level of humbling .

But my humble is for this one : ((Allah receiveth (men's) souls at the time of their death, and that (soul) which dieth not (yet) in its sleep. He keepeth that (soul) for which He hath ordained death and dismisseth the rest till an appointed term. Lo! herein verily are portents for people who take thought. )) Surah 39 .

You live your life among your friends and lovers with this body [ flesh and water ] and you will die With this body [ flesh and water ] .
Which thing that depart from your body and make you die ?
Who did take this thing from your body ?
Why you are unable to resist him as you resist sickness ?
Why he did choose this time exactly to make you die ?
Who force you to die ?
[ the highest level of humbling on you by the authority of God with or without your permission ] and you can not resist it .

((If thou couldst see, when the wrong-doers reach the pangs of death and the angels stretch their hands out saying: Deliver up your souls. This day ye are awarded doom of degradation for that ye spake concerning Allah other than the truth, and scorned His portents. (93) Now have ye come unto Us solitary as We did create you at the first, and ye have left behind you all that We bestowed upon you, and We behold not with you those your intercessors, of whom ye claimed that they possessed a share in you. Now is the bond between you severed, and that which ye presumed hath failed you. )) Surah 6

It is not a claim [especially not a man made myth . ]
Prove that prophets are myth .

[AtheistPhil]

Prove that prophets are myth .

Prove that prophets are real.

[Ace Otana]

Last_ray, I see your post as very counter productive. You are either dancing on the line of preaching or are preaching.