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Wow.. a bullfighter would be proud of that dodge SecularOne ...nice job!
Existentialism yes I agree Sae. More circular than a perfect circle
I don't think spirituality is supernatural. It's something tangible yet unprovable. Possibly like thought. As some would define thought as purely natural, then to them spirituality = natural.
SecularOne Wrote:For me, spiritual growth implies my growth as a person in character, integrity, values, relationships, happiness, etc. Essentially everything in my life that has anything to do with who and what I am and how I'm coping with the challenges of life.
I don't yet fully understand this SO. What is the 'spirit' then to you? In christian terms I'm sure you're aware it describes a person's essence perhaps. Their mind. Their persona. What is it to you exactly?
We've discussed it very thorougly Sae but never reached any conclusion. Some say one thing, some say another. Neither satisfactorily answers the question equivocally.
We know how thought is originated and processed.. but thought is more than the neurons. Cogitation is of course produced, stored and transferred physically, and death terminates it, along with physical interruption. The great CPU of our brain creates and develops ideas that ride on top of all this physical activity. The two are connected but not the same thing, and no one has produced here any evidence to the contrary, yet. I'm not interested in one side of this discussion, both scenarios are fine by me.
secularone Wrote:And now, for Saerules, who is interested in what Unitarian Universalists mean by "inherent worth." Intrinsic value is an ethical and philosophic property. It is the ethical or philosophic value that an object has "in itself" or "for its own sake
Hmm... by that do you mean to elaborate on the point that A=A... in that A's attributes define A?
That could be a good way of putting it. I just believe that all people have value, if for no other reason than the fact that they are people.
Quote:I can see that definition of 'spirit'/'spiritual growth' It (Unitarian Universalism) seems a great deal like existentialism to me... would that be a correct observation, Secularone?
Well, since it's my definition, I suppose I can agree with that analysis. But it's important to remember that not all UU's adopt my definition and I don't have a problem with them having their own.
When it comes to collaborating with theists, I am resistant to collaborating with them in any way that would further dumb-down agendas. On the other hand, one could argue correctly that I am collaborating with theists by working with anyone, including theists who share and promote my values.
I don't consider my values to be a religion.
And while there are theists in UU congregations, there are no Fundamentalists. There are representations of many religious backgrounds.
(November 3, 2009 at 8:04 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Of course they are, it's the default position. Most Atheists here assume a hell of a lot of bad things about Christians akin to demonising them.
1. Most people are not atheists.
2.
Quote:Most Atheists here assume a hell of a lot of bad things about Christians akin to demonising them.
Your original claim was that Christians are considered fundamentalist by default. You did not specify us atheists in this forum, and even if that is what you mean... now you are saying 'most' (of 'us')... and if that is the case... please give details (if you can)... what are you referring to?
(November 6, 2009 at 8:47 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: 1. Most people are not atheists.
Of course they are!!! Not in your wildest dreams would that not be true.
(November 6, 2009 at 8:47 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: 2.
Quote:Most Atheists here assume a hell of a lot of bad things about Christians akin to demonising them.
Your original claim was that Christians are considered fundamentalist by default. You did not specify us atheists in this forum, and even if that is what you mean... now you are saying 'most' (of 'us')... and if that is the case... please give details (if you can)... what are you referring to?
Whenever the term 'Christian' is used it's to demonize via some extreme example as if this applies to all Christians by default rather than the extreme and totally non Christian acts always portrayed.
Quote:Whenever the term 'Christian' is used it's to demonize via some extreme example as if this applies to all Christians by default rather than the extreme and totally non Christian acts always portrayed.
Actually as far as I know... it's the opposite.
People will say things like "That's very Christian of you"... and it's apparently an insult to say someone is "Unchristian".... it has negative connotations according to dictionaries and thesauruses if I remember correctly last time I looked it up
Just as impious has negative connotations. As piety has positive ones... I as an atheist think that is bullshit of course - there's nothing wrong with impiety
And people will say things like "What are you playing such loud music for at this ungodly hour?" ...ungodly is used as a curse word.
Sure, there are many non-religious people who flame religious people...but then there are many who don't. And when there are irreligious flamers of the religious... I doubt they simply refer to them as "Christians".
Christian does not=fundie. I, like many atheists alike I believe, understand that there are fundie Christians...but there are also moderate Christians. And there are all those in-between, etc.
Christian adherants (including non believers) in the world total 2.1billion of a total 6.2billion world population (2002 figures). Add the other religions and you don't reach 50% ...and remember a large proportion don't even believe.
My point is that contrary to what the statement says, Christianity is actually at least as much of a dirty word as Atheism. Those cliche's you speak of are now effectively archaic language. No one would ever say those things indiscriminately in our society.
The population numbers below are computed by a combination of census reports, random surveys (in countries where religion data is not collected in census, for example USA or France), and self-reported attendance numbers, but results can vary widely depending on the way questions are phrased, the definitions of religion used and the bias of the agencies or organizations conducting the survey. Informal or unorganized religions are especially difficult to count. Some organizations may wildly inflate their numbers.
Religious category Number of followers Cultural tradition Main regions covered
Christianity 2,100,000,000 – 2,200,000,000[6][7] Abrahamic religions Predominant in the Western world (Europe, the Americas, Oceania), Sub-Saharan Africa and the Philippines. Minorities worldwide, see Christianity by country.
Islam 1,300,000,000 – 1,600,000,000[8][9] Abrahamic religions Middle East, Northern Africa, Central Asia, South Asia, Western Africa, Indian subcontinent, Malay Archipelago with large population centers existing in Eastern Africa, Balkan Peninsula, Russia, Europe and China.
Hinduism 950,000,000 – 1,400,000,000[10] Indian religions Indian subcontinent, Fiji, Guyana, Trinidad, Mauritius, Suriname, Bali, Australasia, Northern America and Southeast Asia.
Buddhism 250,000,000 – 500,000,000[11] Indian religions Indian subcontinent, Sri Lanka ,East Asia, Indochina, regions of Russia.
Sikhism 20,000,000 - 30,000,000[12] Indian religions Indian subcontinent, Australasia, Northern America, Southeast Asia, the United Kingdom and Western Europe.
Judaism 12,000,000 – 18,000,000[13] Abrahamic religions Israel and Jewish diaspora (meaning mostly North America and Europe)
Bahá'í Faith 7,600,000[14] – 7,900,000[15] Abrahamic religions Noted for being dispersed worldwide[16][17] but the top ten populations (amounting to about 60% of the Bahá'í World Faith adherents) are (in order of size of community) India, United States, Vietnam, Kenya, DR of the Congo, Philippines, Zambia, South Africa, Iran, Bolivia[18]
Jainism 6,000,000 – 12,000,000[19] Indian religions India, and East Africa
Cheondoism 3,000,000[20] Korean North Korea
Tenrikyo 2,000,000[21] Japanese Japan, Brazil
Cao Dai 1,000,000 - 3,000,000[22] Vietnamese Vietnam
African traditional and diasporic religions 1,000,000s[23] Folk religions Africa, Americas
Other folk religions 1,000,000s[23] Folk religions India, Asia
Ahl-e Haqq 1,000,000[24] Iranian Iraq, Iran
Seicho-no-Ie 800,000[21] Japanese Japan
Yazidism 700,000[25] Kurdish mainly Iraq
Rastafari movement 700,000[26] Abrahamic religions c. Jamaica, Caribbean, Africa
Unitarian Universalism 630,000[27] Western United States, Europe
Chinese folk religions Varies[23] Folk religions China
Shinto Varies Far Eastern religions Japan
Taoism Varies[23] Far Eastern religions China and the Chinese diaspora
(November 6, 2009 at 10:26 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Christian adherants (including non believers) in the world total 2.1billion of a total 6.2billion world population (2002 figures). Add the other religions and you don't reach 50% ...and remember a large proportion don't even believe.
Religion is still vastly in the majority... so for atheism to be in the majority over theism then almost every single religious person would have to not actually believe in God. Is that what you are suggesting? And if so, where's your evidence?
Quote:My point is that contrary to what the statement says, Christianity is actually at least as much of a dirty word as Atheism.
What makes you think that?
Quote: Those cliche's you speak of are now effectively archaic language. No one would ever say those things indiscriminately in our society.
After all this time... I still don't see what you have against existentialism 
